# PA Democratic debate tonight **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621 "2008-04-16T18:37:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/181 "2008-04-18T13:51:52Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] But the reason I invest it in the first place is the hope of a higher return on it than I would achieve otherwise. [/QUOTE] but it’s still a much higher return than you’d get otherwise. The best non-capital investments that I’ve seen are only gonna earn you around 5-6% if you can meet the high minimum. The market has the potential for a much higher return plus the compounding factor of making money on the money you’ve made. And absorbing part of the risk, if you take a capital loss - it’s tax deductible. Since people will be treating this as income, why is it not fair to treat it like income? I don’t get the huge complaints about capital gains tax being in line with a middle to upper-middle class tax bracket. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/182 "2008-04-18T14:50:03Z")
I did not see the debate, but from what I’ve read here, it seemed to [sound like this](http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2008/04/16/im-not-saying-im-just-saying/). Or am I wrong and there was more to it? ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/183 "2008-04-18T15:25:18Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] But the reason I invest it in the first place is the hope of a higher return on it than I would achieve otherwise. > [@](#): > > [QUOTE=DSeid] > Let’s break this down for the smaller investor. Middle class two kids. > > What _should_ they be doing with their money? … after needs are met I mean. > > Max out on the IRA or other retirement vehicle. Tax protected. > > Fund the kids 529 college funds early. > > Keep a liquid reserve. > > Then they can decide what to do with more. Say that $2000. Spend on luxuries and fun or invest. Let’s assume they decide to invest. Savings acct or stocks? You’re telling me that a marginal increase in the capital gains tax rate will effect their choice more than it would someone who has $200K in his account. That that is the issue more than the trading fee or perceived market or individual stock volatility at that level? > > Sorry I don’t get it either. > [@RTE Firefly](#): > > [hijack] > I confess I’d love to see a tax that de-incentivized (if that’s a word) using the market as a casino, playing the short-term ups and downs. It would be simple: just tax capital gains at the higher of regular income and (99-n)%, where n was the number of days you’d held the asset. > [/hijack] As my Intermediate MicroEcon professor would say: the capital gains tax is an attempt to legislate behavior. I think we as a society should think that the greater good is investing in ourselves. What a better, more direct way to do that than to invest in a corporation? (If you are one that blanket thinks that corporations are eeeevil, then this discussion is lost on you). The flip side of the coin, the risk, is that people will leverage this opportunity to maximize their profit, or as **RTE Firefly** put it: “gambling.” (Not to hijack this any further, but shorting provides a more accurate view of the market, helps the futures market, and provides more efficiency in the interest rate, but I digress…) Ideally, I argue that their should not be any tax. That money was taxed already as personal income. But, I realize that the money works, so we have to tax it, but at the same time we do not want to prevent investment. If we want a classless society, then we need to allow our citizens the opportunity to free operate in the market and reap the rewards from their wise investing (or good luck) if they don’t have the capital to do so in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/184 "2008-04-18T15:29:42Z")
Having a difficult time posting. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/185 "2008-04-18T16:04:27Z")
As my Intermediate MicroEcon professor would say: the capital gains tax is an attempt to legislate behavior. I think we as a society should think that the greater good is investing in ourselves. What a better, more direct way to do that than to invest in a corporation? (If you are one that blanket thinks that corporations are eeeevil, then this discussion is lost on you). The flip side of the coin, the risk, is that people will leverage this opportunity to maximize their profit, or as **RTE Firefly** put it: “gambling.” (Not to hijack this any further, but shorting provides a more accurate view of the market, helps the futures market, and provides more efficiency in the interest rate, but I digress…) Ideally, I argue that their should not be any tax. That money was taxed already as personal income. But, I realize that the money works, so we have to tax it, but at the same time we do not want to prevent investment. If we want a classless society, then we need to allow our citizens the opportunity to freely operate in the market and reap the rewards from their wise investing (or good luck) if they don’t have the capital to do so in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/186 "2008-04-18T16:18:01Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] [hijack] I confess I’d love to see a tax that de-incentivized (if that’s a word) using the market as a casino, playing the short-term ups and downs. It would be simple: just tax capital gains at the higher of regular income and (99-n)%, where n was the number of days you’d held the asset. [/hijack] [/QUOTE] Wait a minute. In this thread (see title), you only consider the last paragraph a hijack? Of course you didn’t start it either. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/187 "2008-04-18T16:21:09Z")
Switch to a consumption tax. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/188 "2008-04-18T16:26:28Z")
I’m all for a wealth tax instead of an income tax… ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/189 "2008-04-18T16:29:10Z")
[QUOTE=mazinger\_z] **Ideally, I argue that their should not be any tax. That money was taxed already as personal income.** But, I realize that the money works, so we have to tax it, but at the same time we do not want to prevent investment. If we want a classless society, then we need to allow our citizens the opportunity to freely operate in the market and reap the rewards from their wise investing (or good luck) if they don’t have the capital to do so in the first place. [/QUOTE] I’ve always been of proponent of this, even if the personal income tax has to be slightly higher to make up for taxes beyond that. Fine, tax my income in order for me to take it home, but after that it’s double taxation and “nickel and diming” me down to my last blood cell. I am am a turnip! ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/190 "2008-04-18T16:33:54Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] I’ve always been of proponent of this, even if the personal income tax has to be slightly higher to make up for taxes beyond that. Fine, tax my income in order for me to take it home, but after that it’s double taxation and “nickel and diming” me down to my last blood cell. I am am a turnip! [/QUOTE] Umm.. no it’s not? Capital GAINS tax. The tax is on the GAINS. Its not on the money you put in, its on the money the money you put in created. So no… it’s not double taxation (which is a term easily defined into nothingness depending on how far back in time you go the money and taxes) How about instead of exempting it from all taxes, just treat it as normal income and have it taxed at whatever bracket you belong in? Otherwise you have the wealthiest people living relatively income-tax-free lives. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/191 "2008-04-18T16:34:52Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] I am am a turnip! [/QUOTE] Eh? ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/192 "2008-04-18T16:38:17Z")
On the topic of the debate, I think that once she really got into talking about some of her policies, Hillary really shone. If she had stayed on that tack throughout this campaign and stopped all the stupid attacks and lying - she would have a much, much stronger chance at the nomination. The race really would be a deadheat. It’s really, really too bad that she chose to go this route. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/193 "2008-04-18T16:39:07Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] Eh? [/QUOTE] as in squeezing the blood from a which doesn’t make sense, because no one complains about their savings and money market account dividends being taxed as normal income. Guess which one affects more people? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/194 "2008-04-18T16:46:20Z")
[The lady who asked the flag questions explains why she thought it was important.](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/34071.html) I got the link from Fark where quite a few people pointed out how she sounds just a little bitter about her economic plight and so is clinging to this flag issue to feel as if she has control over something. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/195 "2008-04-18T16:49:38Z")
[QUOTE=Biggirl] [The lady who asked the flag questions explains why she thought it was important.](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/34071.html) I got the link from Fark where quite a few people pointed out how she sounds just a little bitter about her economic plight and so is clinging to this flag issue to feel as if she has control over something. [/QUOTE] If irony were made of strawberries, we’d all be having a bunch of smoothies right now. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/196 "2008-04-18T17:39:10Z")
[QUOTE=spazattak] Umm.. no it’s not? Capital GAINS tax. The tax is on the GAINS. Its not on the money you put in, its on the money the money you put in created. So no… it’s not double taxation (which is a term easily defined into nothingness depending on how far back in time you go the money and taxes) How about instead of exempting it from all taxes, just treat it as normal income and have it taxed at whatever bracket you belong in? Otherwise you have the wealthiest people living relatively income-tax-free lives. [/QUOTE] You probably have the correct interpretation of the post I was responding to; I really can’t argue capital gain tax issues but thought he was talking about only personal income and the taxes associated with that. If it was simply talking about capital gains, I freely admit I did not understand that. [QUOTE=mlees] Eh? [/QUOTE] I meant “I am _not_ a turnip!” as in the response in post # 192. [QUOTE=grayhairedmomma] On the topic of the debate, I think that once she really got into talking about some of her policies, Hillary really shone. If she had stayed on that tack throughout this campaign and stopped all the stupid attacks and lying - she would have a much, much stronger chance at the nomination. The race really would be a deadheat. It’s really, really too bad that she chose to go this route. [/QUOTE] I am not a Hillary fan, but I think she has some really good ideas, if she would only stick to espousing them more. The personal attacks and lying make me not want to listen to her though. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621/197 "2008-04-18T18:19:11Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] I meant “I am _not_ a turnip!” as in the response in post # 192. [/QUOTE] That’s what I thought. 😉 Usually, when someone is _called_ a turnip, it’s a statement of their intellectual capacity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-democratic-debate-tonight/445621.md?page=9)