# PA looking at removing sex from birth certificates **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 29, 2025, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583 "2025-01-29T16:52:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/21 "2025-01-29T18:25:02Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Do you really think that if only we had no gender on birth certificates, Republicans would just shrug and say, “aww shucks, guess we don’t know who to persecute then”? I think I’m very glad that I had the presence of mind to get my son’s passport prior to 1/20/25. I’m sad that not everyone had the same foresight, or had the same opportunities (I live in a red state but my son was born in a blue state that allowed us to change the gender on his birth certificate). I’m all for anything that makes it harder for bigots to bigot so that normal people can get on with their normal lives. Saying “Oh, we just need to solve transphobia, then there’s no problem” is kinda insulting to people just trying to do mundane stuff like get a passport renewed. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/22 "2025-01-29T18:29:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > Birth certificates ought to contain sufficient information to identify an individual. > > Okay, sure. But… > > This isn’t a solution in search of a problem; it’s a solution to a solution in search of a problem. I agree. Except for an occasional, and preventable mix up in the neonatal ward a sex category is not going to help identify people. And in those cases baby footprints or just an ink stamp will suffice. ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/23 "2025-01-29T18:31:16Z")
I was a college student in the 1970s and got assigned to read the 1972 short story _The Story of X_. In the story, the government arranges an experiment with some parents that the gender of their new baby is not announced. Despite the concerns of neighbors and relatives, the child grows up playing with dolls AND trucks, wears red and white checkered jumpers, etc. The child and world are happy and understanding. That was _ **1972** _, with a thought that government wouldn’t really care or need to know a person’s gender. Wishful thinking, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/24 "2025-01-29T18:31:53Z")
Military draft would be one reason to have gender. Women have never been eligible for the military draft in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/25 "2025-01-29T18:32:57Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > You don’t think that there’s any reason for the state to have someone’s sex on file? > > No, I do not. Could you provide one? For one, how does the state decide whether you go to a men’s or women’s prison if they don’t have your sex on file anywhere? > [@DocCathode](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > If trans people want to change their official government recognized sex, they should be able to. > > For a time, they were able to do so. All signs point to that time coming to an end. And the problem, again, is with transphobia preventing us from treating trans people humanely. Not with the very fact that the government tracks sex in and of itself. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Under Trump, you will always and forever be the sex on your birth certificate And do you think having a birth certificate with no gender on it would help, or would Trump’s federal government demand other medical documentation showing gender at birth? Do you think if a liberal state has absolutely no documentation of sex or gender at all, a Trumpy government would just shrug and let them identify as they wish, or would they place the burden of proving your sex assigned at birth on the residents of that state? > [@DocCathode](#): > > Again, a trans woman who has long been on HRT, and has had gender affirming surgery would still be a man under the law. She would be required to use facilities designated for men. If incarcerated, she would be placed in a men’s prison. That’s a problem with transphobia, not with sex being on the birth certificate. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Again, it is not quite yet impossible to change the sex on your birth certificate. It very soon will be. It will, in fact, be permanent. Again, the problem there is transphobia, not the birth certificate. > [@DocCathode](#): > > I suggest you read them again. So if you come from a state with no gender on the birth certificate, will the feds: 1. let you identify as you wish Or 1. place the burden of proving your assigned sex at birth on you > [@DocCathode](#): > > If there is no sex listed on a student’s birth certificate, that legislation becomes meaningless. Or it targets everyone, cis and trans, until they somehow produce documentation of their sex assigned at birth… > [@DocCathode](#): > > Who said anything about the government abolishing recognition of people’s sex? All I and others have said is that sex does not need to be listed on birth certificates. Passports, driver’s licenses etc currently rely on a birth certificate for a person’s sex. They could no longer do that. They would need to find a new way. The easiest would be to ask the person obtaining the new document. I don’t think that you should be able to declare any sex on a government form. If you are trans, there should be a process to go through to tell the government that, but I don’t believe it should be completely self-identification. And that means tracking that information at a level beyond just asking people. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/26 "2025-01-29T18:33:46Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Military draft would be one reason to have gender. Women have never been eligible for the military draft in this country. Isn’t there a simple way to remove that problem? ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/27 "2025-01-29T18:37:45Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Isn’t there a simple way to remove that problem? I wouldn’t want to be drafted but I understand why it has been necessary at certain times. On the prison issue I am in favor of keeping penises and vaginas separate because I don’t need to support pregnancies that are between two different inmates, forced or unforced. Plenty of rape in prison already no doubt, we don’t need to add pregnancy to the mix. So for prison purposes yes the government gets to make that decision. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/28 "2025-01-29T18:38:13Z")
Steve Martin had a bit, “You could be a millionaire, and never pay taxes!” The method was, first, get a million dollars then… So, first, solve transphobia, then… ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/29 "2025-01-29T18:39:06Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > On the prison issue I am in favor of keeping penises and vaginas separate I’m not sure I agree with this, but even if I did, I imagine you could find one or the other without looking at a birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/30 "2025-01-29T18:40:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > For one, how does the state decide whether you go to a men’s or women’s prison if they don’t have your sex on file anywhere? I know a lot of people who have been sent to prison and not one provided their birth certificate to the Department of Corrections for classification. Somehow they figured it out with the birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/31 "2025-01-29T18:44:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Baby footprints won’t be reliable for very long. To my knowledge, baby footprints only appear on birth certificates given to the parent by the hospital. Those are not legal documents. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/32 "2025-01-29T18:47:47Z")
> [@JohnGalt](#): > > I was a college student in the 1970s and got assigned to read the 1972 short story _The Story of X_. I read that and others in the book Stories For Free Children. My favorite was The Princess Who Stood On Her Own Two Feet. ETA found it! [http://parentingtuneup.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Princess\_Who\_Stood\_on\_Her\_Own\_Two\_Feet.pdf](http://parentingtuneup.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Princess_Who_Stood_on_Her_Own_Two_Feet.pdf) > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Military draft would be one reason to have gender. Women have never been eligible for the military draft in this country. Correct me if I am wrong, but the last draft was for Viet Nam, wasn’t it? According to Uncle Cecil that draft may not have been legal. I don’t see another draft coming any time soon. While we have de facto been at war various times in my life (I just turned fifty), we have never legally been at war. > [@Babale](#): > > For one, how does the state decide whether you go to a men’s or women’s prison if they don’t have your sex on file anywhere? I never said ‘no sex on file anywhere’. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I said, and I repeat, there is no need to list sex on a birth certificate. > [@Babale](#): > > And the problem, again, is with transphobia preventing us from treating trans people humanely. Not with the very fact that the government tracks sex in and of itself. Yes, transphobia is the problem. That transphobia has been enshrined into law. We must deal with that law and protect poeple as best we can. What actual actions would you suggest we take? Why exactly does issuing birth certificates that do not list sex not helpful? > [@Babale](#): > > And do you think having a birth certificate with no gender on it would help, or would Trump’s federal government demand other medical documentation showing gender at birth? Yes, yes I do. Why wouldn’t it? > [@Babale](#): > > Do you think if a liberal state has absolutely no documentation of sex or gender at all Again, I never said “no documentation of sex or gender at all”. I said that _birth certificates_ should not list sex. > [@Babale](#): > > Again, the problem there is transphobia, not the birth certificate. Again, the transphibia is now law in a few states, and very shortly under federal law. What specififc actions would you suggest? How does removing sex from birth certificates not prevent laws denmanding ‘conformity’ to the sex on your birth certificate from having their intended effect? > [@Babale](#): > > So if you come from a state with no gender on the birth certificate, will the feds: > > 1. let you identify as you wish > > Or > > 1. place the burden of proving your assigned sex at birth on you I don’t know. I do know that right now trans people and non binary people are screwed. Unless they get screwed worse by not listing sex on birth certificates, there is no reason not to try it,. > [@Babale](#): > > Or it targets everyone, cis and trans, until they somehow produce documentation of their sex assigned at birth… I find that highly unlikely. How exactly would that happen? > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t think that you should be able to declare any sex on a government form. If you are trans, there should be a process to go through to tell the government that, but I don’t believe it should be completely self-identification. That process no longer exists. What would you suggest? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/33 "2025-01-29T18:53:14Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I never said ‘no sex on file anywhere’. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I said, and I repeat, there is no need to list sex on a birth certificate. Then I repeat that this wouldn’t solve the issues you’re worried about, since it doesn’t matter whether the sex is on a birth certificate or elsewhere. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Why exactly does issuing birth certificates that do not list sex not helpful? Because either you’re not tracking sex at all, which is problematic, or you are, in which case it doesn’t matter if transphobes find it on the birth certificate or on another document. > [@DocCathode](#): > > I find that highly unlikely. How exactly would that happen? The law says that if your birth certificate sex doesn’t match your stated sex, you’re in trouble; if your birth certificate doesn’t list a sex at all, everyone is in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/34 "2025-01-29T18:53:22Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > You don’t think that there’s any reason for the state to have someone’s sex on file? > > No, I do not. Could you provide one? Another one is to determine who needs to register with the selective service system. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/35 "2025-01-29T18:53:44Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > That process no longer exists. What would you suggest? To reinstate that process, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/36 "2025-01-29T18:56:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > if your birth certificate doesn’t list a sex at all, everyone is in trouble. If everyone is in trouble, no one is in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/37 "2025-01-29T18:59:09Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I know a lot of people who have been sent to prison and not one provided their birth certificate to the Department of Corrections for classification. Somehow they figured it out with the birth certificate. “Everyone goes to the prison that matches their physical genitalia” is **a** solution, but I don’t know if it is the one that most trans allies prefer. Also, the quote you’re responding to had nothing to do with birth certificates: > [@DocCathode](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > You don’t think that there’s any reason for the state to have someone’s sex on file? > > No, I do not. Could you provide one? DocCathode said that he believes there is no valid reason for the state to have someone’s sex _on file_. Not on the birth certificate specifically - on file at all. He may have walked back that statement afterwards, but that’s what I was responding to when I brought up prisons. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/38 "2025-01-29T19:03:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Then I repeat that this wouldn’t solve the issues you’re worried about, since it doesn’t matter whether the sex is on a birth certificate or elsewhere. Thet depends on the criteria for establishing the sex listed elsewhere. At present, the doctor looks at a newborn’s genitrals, ticks a box, and that sex follows them around for life. If self-identification won’t work, try something else. Why stick with the sex on the birth certificate? > [@Babale](#): > > Because either you’re not tracking sex at all, which is problematic I agree. That is why I never once said that we should not track sex at all. > [@Babale](#): > > or you are, in which case it doesn’t matter if transphobes find it on the birth certificate or on another document. Again, the sex on your birth certificate is assigned by a doctor at birth. You have no say in the matter. If we find another way, a trans woman’s (for example) driver’s license would list her as femanle. What would the transphobes do about that? > [@Babale](#): > > The law says that if your birth certificate sex doesn’t match your stated sex, you’re in trouble; if your birth certificate doesn’t list a sex at all, everyone is in trouble. I asked exactly how it would happen. Rather than proposing steps it would happen in, or actually explaining and defending your statement, you simply repeated it in a different wording. I ask again, how exactly would that happen? > [@Babale](#): > > To reinstate that process, obviously. And just how do we do that with Trump and other bigots in power? Please be specific. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/39 "2025-01-29T19:06:09Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It’s a medical record. Is it? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/40 "2025-01-29T19:07:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You don’t think that there’s any reason for the state to have someone’s sex on file? OOps! I did in fact misread you. You jumped from my statement that sex does not need to be listed on birth certificates to the sentence above. I missed that jump. The state needing to have your sex on file does not equate to ‘we should list sex on birth certicates’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583.md?page=3)