# PA looking at removing sex from birth certificates **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 29, 2025, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583 "2025-01-29T16:52:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/81 "2025-01-29T22:51:30Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > We have had quite a few debates on whether trans atheletes have an advantage over cis atheletes. Definite proof of an advantage has not been posted in those threads. The debate is over whether _trans athletes who transitioned before undergoing male puberty_ have an advantage or not, and the evidence on that is mixed. But that’s also only a subset of all trans people. There is zero question about whether a trans woman who underwent male puberty and transitioned later, or a trans woman who never physically transitioned at all but did socially transition, has an advantage (obviously much bigger in the second case). So _even if_ we accept the claim that _undergoing transition before male puberty occurs **completely** eliminates the male advantage in sports_, a claim you need to provide evidence for if you accept it to actually be accepted, the government _still_ has an interest in whether someone is or is not trans, so they can ask for the appropriate documentation to allow trans women to participate in female sports. > [@DocCathode](#): > > I see any federal grants that aid trans people going away very soon. And if that truly happens, that’s a problem with the transphobic federal government, not with birth certificates. > [@DocCathode](#): > > I am genuinely curious what will happen when somebody AFAB applies for a grant meant for cis women. The federal law will say that ‘the sex on your birth certificate is your legal sex and cannot be changed’. My guess is that they’ll deny him, because they don’t need your permission to interpret the law as uncharitably as possible. > [@DocCathode](#): > > I can see the need to know a prisoner’s assigned at birth sex before. Their medical needs would be slightly different. Some states at least had laws saying that trans prisoners must continue to be given care for their stage of transition. A prisoner on HRT must continue to be provided HRT and so forth. Things have, of course, changed since Trump started his second term. Then it sounds like we agree. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/82 "2025-01-29T22:59:02Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The purpose of the birth certificate is to create an identification paper trail, to ensure that when a person comes to a business or a government office, that they are actually the person that they say they are. As far as I can tell, there is no way I can connect my birth certificate to me. None. Even my name is different. All it has on it is my name, my parents’ names and sex. When I say this is my birth certificate, you have to believe me. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/83 "2025-01-29T23:59:28Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > All it has on it is my name, my parents’ names and sex. When I say this is my birth certificate, you have to believe me. Yeah. And birth weight, for all the good that will do. I’ve put on a few pounds since then. Maybe they could declare my actual weight to be the weight on my birth certificate? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/84 "2025-01-30T02:12:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Earlier, I asked whether you thought we shouldn’t record someone’s “gender history” - if the moment they transitioned we should destroy all past documentation that shows they ever had a different gender. You said no, of course not. That is what they do at the moment though. [“The new birth certificate will reflect the amendment and will not show evidence that any changes were made.”](https://www.alleghenycounty.us/files/assets/county/v/1/government/health/documents/lgbtq/gender-marker-changes.pdf). This is also the case in sex self-id states such as (eg) [California](https://transequality.org/documents/california-identity-documents). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/85 "2025-01-30T02:43:20Z")
And I don’t think that’s very good policy. It’s better than not being able to change gender at all, of course. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/86 "2025-01-30T04:24:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > As for cases where I think the government has a legitimate interest in tracking this info, some examples include: > > Sports - especially college sports run by the government and subject to Title 9 protection > > Certain government grants intended to counter disadvantages borne by cis women, as well as grants that specifically target trans people > > Law enforcement - as noted this includes prisons, it also includes the very rare scenarios where a bad actor might try to abuse the transitioning process > > And finally, note that non government groups running spaces that are segregated by gender for physical reasons may also take interest in the government keeping accurate records, as they may rely on those records to make their own determination. For example, sporting federations Sports, whether governmental or nongovernmental, should be deciding trans and intersex cases on a case by case business, considering multiple factors to determine whether the specific individual actually has an unfair advantage in the specific sport. Trans women are currently dealing with the disadvantages borne by cis women as well as the disadvantages borne by trans people. If they were raised as male until adulthood or near adulthood, they may not have been dealing with the disadvantages of being female in their childhoods; but neither has someone who socially transitioned as a young child, and that difference isn’t going to show up on a birth certificate. I don’t know what you mean by a bad actor trying to abuse the transitioning process; but I don’t see how a statement on a birth certificate would tell such a person from a person who is not a bad actor who is trying to transition. I’ve already discussed the prison issue. And what, while we’re at it, do you suggest that we put on visibly intersex people’s birth certificates? > [@DocCathode](#): > > If somebody has had gender affirming surgery, they’re going to need a DNA test to establish that it really is their birth certificate. Which may not do so, as DNA doesn’t always match appearance at birth. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > No one is saying that people can’t change their gender. Nobody in this thread, maybe. Lots of people in the USA, though. > [@Babale](#): > > Win elections, by no longer turning off huge portions of the electorate with braindead ideas like taking gender off the birth certificate, so that we can pass legislation that protects trans people. > > Playing idiotic games like telling people “trans rights activists are not attacking the very concept of gender, that’s a ridiculous right wing lie. Now, let’s remove gender from the birth certificate” will do nothing but win the transphobes more votes. Whether this is a bright idea in the tactical sense seems to me to be a separate question from the question of whether it has made any sense, at least since photography became common, to have sex on birth certificates; which is only part of the much larger question of whether and in what circumstances the government has any business keeping track of anybody’s gender. > [@Babale](#): > > I specifically said “so what” in reaction to the idea that _you have no say as to what your sex assigned at birth is_. That’s true, but it doesn’t mean that sex assigned at birth isn’t a relevant; a cis person doesn’t pick their sex either, and neither a sex nor a trans person chooses their (matching/non matching) gender identity. Rich and poor alike are forbidden to sleep under bridges. Heterosexual and homosexual people were both free to marry someone of the “opposite” sex. To clarify if necessary: your argument might work if trans people had no societal difficulties that cis people didn’t share. Which is not true. > [@Babale](#): > > Answered multiple times upthread. And disputed; multiple times upthread, and also in this post. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If you’re transgender, your only safe course - in the real live world, not the one that we’d prefer - is to avoid places that are liable to pass and meaningfully enforce transphobic laws. In the real live world, that is at least impractible and often impossible for a whole lot of transgender people. “Just move if you don’t like it” (yes I know that’s not a direct quote) is pretty awful advice as a “solution” for all sorts of abusive discrimination, this type included. It presupposes adulthood, plenty of money, nobody you’re unwilling to abandon and can’t take with you, and somewhere to move to that will let you move in. Oh, and a passport; which is to some extent where we came in. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/87 "2025-01-30T04:37:57Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Sports, whether governmental or nongovernmental, should be deciding trans and intersex cases on a case by case business, considering multiple factors to determine whether the specific individual actually has an unfair advantage in the specific sport. I agree, and have said the same iniltiple threads. Part of being able to make that case by case decision intelligently involves knowing the sex assigned at birth as well as the age of transition, which is where official documentation comes in. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Trans women are currently dealing with the disadvantages borne by cis women as well as the disadvantages borne by trans people. If they were raised as male until adulthood or near adulthood, they may not have been dealing with the disadvantages of being female in their childhoods; but neither has someone who socially transitioned as a young child, and that difference isn’t going to show up on a birth certificate. OK? None of that changes the fact that some government grants or programs will still be targeting cis women. Others will be targeting trans women specifically, and still others might target all women. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I don’t know what you mean by a bad actor trying to abuse the transitioning process; but I don’t see how a statement on a birth certificate would tell such a person from a person who is not a bad actor who is trying to transition. It wouldn’t, by itself, but documenting sex assigned at birth as well as when transitions occur would be part of that. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And what, while we’re at it, do you suggest that we put on visibly intersex people’s birth certificates? Uh, intersex? Or whatever more specific medical term is appropriate depending on the situation. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > To clarify if necessary: your argument might work if trans people had no societal difficulties that cis people didn’t share. Which is not true. My argument has nothing to do with that, so you must not have understood it. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/88 "2025-01-30T05:07:57Z")
I’ve read the thread, but perhaps I’ve missed this. As I understand it, intersex babies’ sex can be recorded either as whatever gender the parents/physicians assign at birth or as “X.” The X is a placeholder until the sex of the baby is decided upon. Is the X replaced on the birth certificate once the sex of the baby is assigned? If so, then why not do this for all babies until the child reaches the age of majority and selects a gender? If not, why can’t birth certificates use X for every child born? ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/89 "2025-01-30T08:51:44Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Hair color exists, but it’s not on my birth certificate. Like most people of my skin complexion, I was born blonde. Now I am a graying brunette.(does the feminine form work for old guys with brown hair?) The trumpian proto-fascism is beyond horrifying to watch in action, and I live on the other side of the planet from you guys. FWIW, we in South Africa have a National ID. Not entirely sure why the US does not have one. SS number is the closest equivalent, I guess. Anyway, my ID number identifies me (using the Luhn algorythm) as white and male. My age, the fact I was born outside the country, some basic information is encoded in the 16 digits. Newer IDs randomise the number that stand for race, and I expect we’ll soon randomise the digit for gender. Not bad for a shithole country. Oh, and this shithole country allows you to [change](https://mysexualhealth.co.za/blogs/articles/the-process-of-gender-marker-change-in-south-africa#:~:text=Documents%20Required,once%20with%20your%20identified%20gender.) your registered gender. It is not easy, but it is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/90 "2025-01-30T10:09:26Z")
There is a risk here of playing into the fearmongering of the opponent; “See?! They’re trying to _take away our gender!_” sort of thing. I’m not saying I have a better idea, but this feels a bit like when same-sex marriage was not available, and some people were suggesting that maybe _nobody should get to call it marriage - everyone just has a civil partnership_ - which, as a rhetorical statement to make married hetero people _empathise_, is great, but as an actual solution, it plays right into 'See!? They’re just trying to destroy our way of life!". ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/91 "2025-01-30T10:13:36Z")
Yes, there’s no point in doing this. What’s important is that we all comply in advance. /s ---
**Author:** ![vbob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vbob/32/4439_2.png) [@vbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vbob)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/92 "2025-01-30T10:58:30Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I don’t think that you should be able to declare any sex on a government form. If you are trans, there should be a process to go through to tell the government that, but I don’t believe it should be completely self-identification. My RI government issue driver’s license states my hair color as blond, as does my niece’s. I’ve been mostly bald for years, and she has a new hair color every month or so…I’ve never heard of anyone getting their license updated after leaving the hair salon. It seems to me that makes the license no more useful for identification than having the current gender listed - or do we expect the police to require a full pants-down field check if we get pulled over for having a brake light out? Only your doctors, lovers (and hairdresser?) need to know for sure… ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/93 "2025-01-30T11:08:16Z")
> [@vbob](#): > > Only your doctors, lovers (and hairdresser?) need to know for sure… I know this is not the thead for it, but in my limited career, I have only ever noted black, brown and ginger in the “pants down” field of enquiry. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/94 "2025-01-30T11:12:28Z")
> [@vbob](#): > > do we expect the police to require a full pants-down field check if we get pulled over for having a brake light out? Give it time… ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/95 "2025-01-30T18:07:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Part of being able to make that case by case decision intelligently involves knowing the sex assigned at birth as well as the age of transition, which is where official documentation comes in. Sports also generally require physical exams. If somebody has transitioned so thoroughly that this can’t be detected in any way on such an exam, then I think it’s pretty unlikely that they’ve got an unfair advantage – as has been mentioned, it’s been shown in previous threads on this board that trans athletes often don’t appear to have such an advantage in actual competition even when their trans status can be detected. If their trans status can be detected as part of routine physical exams, then their medical records should be sufficient to determine the time of each stage of the transition. No need for it to be on the birth certificate. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > I don’t know what you mean by a bad actor trying to abuse the transitioning process; but I don’t see how a statement on a birth certificate would tell such a person from a person who is not a bad actor who is trying to transition. > > It wouldn’t, by itself, but documenting sex assigned at birth as well as when transitions occur would be part of that. Why would it have to be? The medical records of transitioning are themselves sufficient evidence that the sex apparent before transition was different. The birth certificate’s not necessary. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > And what, while we’re at it, do you suggest that we put on visibly intersex people’s birth certificates? > > Uh, intersex? Or whatever more specific medical term is appropriate depending on the situation. The Trump administration is not allowing for that possibility. Male or female are the only things that exist and therefore the only things allowed, declares MAGA. > [@vbob](#): > > do we expect the police to require a full pants-down field check if we get pulled over for having a brake light out? I’ve been wondering this for years about bathroom restriction bills. How are they to be enforced other than by having a pants-down check for everybody outside the bathroom door, before anyone’s allowed in? And I don’t suppose even that would catch everybody – (Recently I went to a meeting at a brewery, and used one of the two bathrooms there. Both of them just said Telephone on the door. I am not a telephone but managed to figure this out.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/96 "2025-01-30T18:15:31Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Recently I went to a meeting at a brewery, and used one of the two bathrooms there. Both of them just said Telephone on the door. That was the phone booth. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/97 "2025-01-30T18:21:42Z")
Funny shaped phone. Flushed pretty well, though. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/98 "2025-01-30T18:30:10Z")
Must have been a collect call and they accepted the charges. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/99 "2025-01-30T18:42:55Z")
Or the discharges, as the case may have been – ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2025, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583/100 "2025-02-10T20:43:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Likewise, I consider not being able to change one’s legal sex to be a bad thing. In Washington State, we don’t have a concept of legal sex. There’s the sex listed on your birth certificate and the sex listed on your driver’s license, both of which can be changed (independently) with no visible indication that they’ve been changed. This doesn’t seem to be causing problems. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-looking-at-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates/1013583.md?page=6)