# Pa. state Senate leader refuses court order on redrawing district maps **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 31, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912 "2018-01-31T22:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/201 "2018-02-21T18:13:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > These two posts seem to be in conflict. The points raised in both, taken together, seem to indicate that the PA court did have the authority: The first says that a federal court would have the authority, and the second says that it is better for such a matter to be handled by a state than by the federal government. If federal court action is permissible, and state action is better than federal action, then state court action is also permissible. The bridge is that SCOTUS has recognized at least as recently as the AZ case that state legislatures or citizens through their representative voice (elections, referendum) can designate another body to perform the redistricting. Minnesota is interesting because the courts in Minnesota have drawn the federal districts each round since the 60’s. Lawsuits mired every plan drawn at every apportionment since then. I don’t know if these were challenged on Elections clause grounds. Some state constitutions and state laws specifically identify groups outside the legislature to perform the redistricting, including a means to resolve dispute. But this isn’t the case in PA. PA has specific provisions to address the state legislative districts, and is silent on the congressional districts. Because it specifically carves out one, but is silent on the other, by way of statutory construction that not indicated should not follow the same procedure. _Expressio unius est exclusio alterius_ It’s true it’s not a slam dunk, far from it given the current situation. That’s my read of it anyways. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/202 "2018-02-21T18:17:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > A separate question. So agreed that SCOTUS won’t want to get involved in this … but could a lower Federal court with a more GOP activist judge agree to hear it? IANAL, but this seems pretty much cut and dried - the answer is No. It goes straight to SCOTUS, if it goes anywhere at all. The reason: the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is a party to this case. And Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution says that “In all Cases…in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/203 "2018-02-21T18:18:05Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I certainly agree in many circumstances. Do you agree that there are circumstances that are not justiciable - that the voters must speak because the other branches cannot or should not? Well, Barry Goldwater. I take him at his word, that his concern for Constitutional principle would not permit him to vote for the Voting Rights Act. That racial prejudice had no role in his decision, that he agonized over it but decided that the Federal government must not overrule “state’s rights”. He did the wrong thing for good reason, but it was still wrong. In my own estimation, Americans of color had a legitimate cause for violent revolution, we can all be grateful that it did not come to that. But the urgency of their cause did not permit such legal nicety, you cannot vote to be permitted to vote, it is an absurdity. Are there issues that do not rise to that level of urgency, wherein such potentially excessive action is not called for, is not justifiable? Well, of course, zoning laws do not demand zeal and fervor. But voting does. It is the most bottom of bottom lines, it is the thing itself. If we are overzealous, and right an injustice by less than optimal means? Pencils have erasers. Nothing is set in stone, any and all can be corrected. I recall Dick Gregory’s words from the dark times, in response to conservative criticism that he must be more patient. “Get your foot off of my grandmother’s neck! Now, Goddammit, not one toe at a time!” He was right. So was Barry Goldwater, but he was also very, very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/204 "2018-02-21T18:32:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think referendum has potential as well, though I’m not familiar if it’s available to PA residents. I am assuming that the PA legislature is not gerrymandered because the process for drawing state legislative districts is spelled out in the state constitution, drawn by independent commission, including provisions for the PA supreme court to redraw the districts. To add to my earlier comments, it seems to me that Pennsylvania has a lopsided map for Republican state legislators because the state senate is about 68% red, and the state House is about 60% red, which seems at odds of how I think about Pennsylvania. That split is more or less what West Virginia’s legislature is, and more Republican than South Carolina’s. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/205 "2018-02-21T18:41:06Z")
> **[Pennsylvania Republicans, utterly rejecting democracy, want to impeach judges...](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/21/1743438/-Pennsylvania-Republicans-utterly-rejecting-democracy-want-to-impeach-judges-who-ordered-new-maps)** > > In a sickening development, Pennsylvania Republicans at all levels are now calling for members of the state Supreme Court to be impeached, simply because the justices lawfully interpreted the state’s constitution to find that Pennsylvania... And this just in… > [@](#): > > …Pennsylvania Republicans at all levels are now calling for members of the state Supreme Court to be impeached… (_Daily Kos_, liberal cooties abound. Tighty Righties should proceed with caution, shields up!) ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/206 "2018-02-21T18:51:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > To add to my earlier comments, it seems to me that Pennsylvania has a lopsided map for Republican state legislators because the state senate is about 68% red, and the state House is about 60% red, which seems at odds of how I think about Pennsylvania. That split is more or less what West Virginia’s legislature is, and more Republican than South Carolina’s. I don’t have enough information on the state legislative districts to draw a conclusion. I did find [this history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_Pennsylvania)of the entire state offices breakdown by party, but there’s nothing there that’s informative on this question. I do believe the congressional districts were heavily gerrymandered. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/207 "2018-02-22T14:17:49Z")
In response to > [@me](#): > > Finishing the beating of the dead horse … if SCOTUS ruled that Congress needed to do X or else be acting against the Constitution (which is their job to decide, agree or disagree with any ruling), and Congress then did not do X, what should happen? > > I do not believe that the response of “the voters will decide” is adequate. **Bone** states: > [@Bone](#): > > I certainly agree in many circumstances. Do you agree that there are circumstances that are not justiciable - that the voters must speak because the other branches cannot or should not? There are, I imagine, imaginable cases of the legislature ignoring the rules of the Constitution as interpreted by SCOTUS whose solutions are not justiciable. And those in which the Executive branch cannot or should not act. But probably very few in which one, the other, or both of those branches in concert cannot or should not act. The cases that are without question _not_ ones remediable by letting the voters speak, and ones in which the other branches can and _must_ act (solely or in concert) are the ones that unconstitutionally (with again the Judicial branch being the arbiter of what that is) altering the voting process, for obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/208 "2018-02-22T14:27:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > To add to my earlier comments, it seems to me that Pennsylvania has a lopsided map for Republican state legislators because the state senate is about 68% red, and the state House is about 60% red, which seems at odds of how I think about Pennsylvania. That split is more or less what West Virginia’s legislature is, and more Republican than South Carolina’s. Lopsidedness in representation despite overall even voter partisan split is not however de facto evidence of gerrymandering for partisan advantage. Many possible maps that follow the court defined neutral guidelines would preserve some degree of GOP advantage on “voter efficiency” just because of structural features of where voters are concentrated. Illustrating that is that the map the governor had proposed met the guideline for neutrality and still maintained a slight GOP voter efficiency advantage, more of one than the new map created by the court appointed expert maintains. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/209 "2018-02-22T20:40:57Z")
House Speaker Mike Turzai and Senate President Pro Tempore Joe Scarnati have [again asked the SCOTUS to step in](https://apnews.com/cd0532950f5e417db135d49ef2e551af/Pennsylvania-congressional-map-battle-lands-in-Supreme-Court) (3rd time in 4 months, according to the AP story). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/210 "2018-02-23T00:43:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > …Illustrating that is that the map the governor had proposed met the guideline for neutrality and still maintained a slight GOP voter efficiency advantage, more of one than the new map created by the court appointed expert maintains. I think there is an interesting point buried in this sentence. Intending no snark whatsoever…maybe a do-over? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/211 "2018-02-24T00:21:57Z")
[Here’s some news](https://apnews.com/e5275f940d09428b998d9605017b301e/Judges-decline-to-immediately-throw-out-congressional-map): > [@](#): > > A new congressional map in Pennsylvania on Friday survived a request from eight of the state’s Republican congressmen that federal judges throw it out immediately, but the case remained far from settled days before candidates will start collecting signatures to get on the primary ballot. > > Hours after they were appointed to the case, a three-judge panel declined to temporarily hold up implementation of the map put in place by the state Supreme Court on Monday. The new map substantially overhauls a GOP-drawn one that has helped produce a predominantly Republican delegation and was widely viewed as among the nation’s most gerrymandered. > > The three federal judges laid out a schedule for the parties to elaborate on their legal positions, including a March 9 hearing in Harrisburg. I’ll be surprised if this progresses much further; I’m open to corrections on my perceptions, tho: > [@](#): > > A lawyer for Democratic Gov. Tom Wolf wrote the court Friday on behalf of the elections officials, noting that two other Republican leaders in the Legislature have a request for a stay of the new map pending before the U.S. Supreme Court. > > Deputy General Counsel Thomas Howell asked the federal court to defer action on the congressmen’s lawsuit until that request has been resolved. > > Howell claimed that the lawsuit against Wolf’s acting secretary of state and the head of the Bureau of Commissions, Elections and Legislation has “significant hurdles” and is “rife with legal and factual errors.” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/212 "2018-02-28T18:49:14Z")
[Saw this on the AP](https://apnews.com/39830aeb5dd84ab688efdaa4e8661efc/Alito-seeks-input-on-Pennsylvania-congressional-map-dispute): > [@](#): > > Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito is giving the Democratic voters who successfully challenged Pennsylvania’s congressional map a few days to weigh in on whether the new districts should be put on hold. > > Alito called Wednesday for a response to the request for a stay made by the state Legislature’s highest-ranking Republicans. > > The voters and Democratic Gov. Tom Wolf both plan to respond by the Monday deadline. > [@](#): > > Alito also sought a response before turning down a similar request by the Republican leaders on Feb. 5. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/213 "2018-02-28T18:53:50Z")
So what is the difference between this request and the previous one? ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/214 "2018-03-19T22:23:02Z")
Supreme Court lets map stand, rejects GOP challenge > **[Pair of federal courts reject GOP attempt to throw out new voting map](https://www.post-gazette.com/news/politics-state/2018/03/19/Pennsylvania-congressional-district-map-upheld-gerrymandering-federal-judges-dismiss-Republican-lawsuit/stories/201803190122)** > > A similar legal challenge, filed by top Republicans in the state House and Senate, is pending before the U.S. Supreme Court. Brian ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/215 "2018-03-21T13:57:35Z")
Well, I guess the only remedy is to [impeach the judges](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/pennsylvania/articles/2018-03-20/gop-lawmakers-seek-to-impeach-judges-over-congressional-map). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912.md?page=10)