# Pa. state Senate leader refuses court order on redrawing district maps **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 31, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912 "2018-01-31T22:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/21 "2018-02-01T16:18:12Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’d say the court is overstepping its authority. How?? A couple of obvious ways the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania could overstep its authority in some random case: 1. It could issue rulings on the applicability of Federal law, which would be the province of Federal rather than state courts. 2. It could issue rulings that violate the Constitution of the United States. There are probably others, but those are probably the biggies. But with respect to the Constitution and laws of the commonwealth of Pennsylvania, it’s the final arbiter. In this case, aside from the possible applicability of #2, it _can’t_ really overstep its authority AFAICT. Speaking of that, I assume that in its request for a stay, the GOP must have specified some provision of the U.S. Constitution that the PA Supreme Court decision violates. Anybody know what that provision was? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/22 "2018-02-01T16:29:00Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The last one, only. I don’t think the court has authority to redraw the districts on its own. I don’t know what the remedy would be, and as I’m not well versed in the PN state constitution, I’d be guessing. My guess would be that the court should produce its guidelines and where they derive the authority to set them. Then, using those guidelines, the legislature should act. The court could then answer any future litigation based on adherence to those guidelines. Essentially, the legislature is the appropriate place for the lines to be drawn. So basically the legislature can delay and delay and delay as long as it wants, maintaining unfair advantage by simply drawing up maps that are unacceptable to the courts. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/23 "2018-02-01T16:37:01Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > … the GOP must have specified some provision of the U.S. Constitution that the PA Supreme Court decision violates. Anybody know what that provision was? **DSYoungEsq** linked to the actual stay request. Their argument is that the PA SC violated [the Elections Clause](https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei) section 4: “The times, places and manner of holding elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each state by the legislature thereof …” and that a court telling the legislature what is and what is not allowed is an “arrogation of legislative power by a state judicial branch”, “rank legislation at the expense of the branch of state government charged with legislation under _federal law_ …”, and disallowed by that clause. Amusingly that argument would also lead one to say that SCOTUS has no power to rule on gerrymandering … only Congress can decide what is and is not allowable. IANAL but yeah that seems to be quite the reach. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/24 "2018-02-01T16:45:56Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > It’s “PA”, not “PN”. Doh. My error. I’m from CA so I blame myself. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t see the significance of that. Clearly the court is going to be very unlikely to uphold legal challenges to districts that they themselves drew. Or do you mean federal courts? Yes federal courts. I think given the Wisconsin case that’s in front of SCOTUS, there is a federal question at hand. > [@DSeid](#): > > But as already referenced, they have. The authority is that they are the arbiters of the state constitution and the laws derived from it. The guidelines, according to their interpretation are “composed of compact and contiguous territory; as nearly equal in population as practicable; and which do not divide any county, city, incorporated town, borough, township or ward, except where necessary to ensure equality of population.” > > Maybe that is a good decision maybe a bad one, but it is within their authority to have decided how to interpret the law. > > You could be right about the opinion not being released yet but there is nothing about implementing that ruling that requires information within it. I think read broadly, your first paragraph may hold the day. But I don’t think it’s a slam dunk. The guidelines that the PA court issued were consistent with the guidelines that are used for the in-state districts for state legislative offices so they didn’t make them up out of whole cloth. But those guidelines were approved when the state districting commission was created and so they derive from the power of the legislature. But the legislature did no such thing with the federal districts so for the court to step in and impose them is in my mind a stretch. The threat that the court itself will redraw the districts even more so. I think it’s within the authority of the court to say the way it was done was improper somehow - I would want to see the opinion before opining on the specifics because the rationale they use is just as important as the conclusion. I do think it’s difficult to implement a ruling without being aware of the basis and reasoning of the ruling. I don’t think it’s within the power of the court to draw the districts themselves. And the idea that this lawsuit has been brewing for many years, but because of the timing created solely by the court, the legislature has just over 2 weeks to redraw districts or else the court will? That also seems unreasonable. My understanding is that PA also has rules around how long a bill must be introduced for, so the time constraints are especially tight. Those constraints seem like a ploy by the court to make it more likely they will be able to draw the districts. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > How?? > > A couple of obvious ways the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania could overstep its authority in some random case: > > 1. It could issue rulings on the applicability of Federal law, which would be the province of Federal rather than state courts. > > 2. It could issue rulings that violate the Constitution of the United States. > > There are probably others, but those are probably the biggies. But with respect to the Constitution and laws of the commonwealth of Pennsylvania, it’s the final arbiter. > > In this case, aside from the possible applicability of #2, it _can’t_ really overstep its authority AFAICT. > > Speaking of that, I assume that in its request for a stay, the GOP must have specified some provision of the U.S. Constitution that the PA Supreme Court decision violates. Anybody know what that provision was? The [stay request by the PA legislature is here.](http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/17A795.pdf) Essentially, the Elections clause of the US constitution states that “The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.” Unless the PA state supreme court is deemed to be the legislature of PA, then I think that’s problematic. The power to draw federal districts is derived from the federal constitution, not the state one. > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > So basically the legislature can delay and delay and delay as long as it wants, maintaining unfair advantage by simply drawing up maps that are unacceptable to the courts. I don’t know, but this does seem like a good use of the ‘so I’m wrong rule’. If the people of PA are unhappy with the outcome, then they can act by voting. If the legislature continues to draw maps that are violative of the state supreme court ruling, then SCOTUS or the US congress can step in. Other than that, I’d say they are SOL. > [@DSeid](#): > > Amusingly that argument would also lead one to say that SCOTUS has no power to rule on gerrymandering … only Congress can decide what is and is not allowable. > > IANAL but yeah that seems to be quite the reach. Isn’t that essentially the question in Wisconsin? Does the court have the power to rule over gerrymandering based on political affiliation? Protected classes, for sure. Maybe because of potential disenfranchisment they could reach a justiciable outcome. But I’m not seeing clearly the basis for disallowing gerrymandering based on political affiliation. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/25 "2018-02-01T17:08:36Z")
**Bone** , again, you, or I, or SCOTUS for that sake, could disagree with the PA SC interpretation of the state Constitution and the laws derived or not. We can believe it was completely an incorrect decision based on a misread of the intent of the districting commission and based on a faulty rationale. Don’t matter. They get to make that call. The legislature does not get to do whatever they want at any time in complete disregard of state laws (as interpreted by the PA SC). They get to make the laws. If the law as written by that branch is interpreted by the judicial branch as meaning X and they believe that X was not what was intended then they have the power to pass new laws up to and including amending their state constitution to address that. That is the means by which the legislature prescribes. My understanding is that SCOTUS has never taken the position that they do not have the power to decide to decide whether or not partisan gerrymandering is legal. They _can_ decide it violates “First Amendment retaliation doctrine” or “equal protection” … they may or may not. That is what the two cases are there to settle. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/26 "2018-02-01T18:29:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The [stay request by the PA legislature is here.](http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/17A795.pdf) Essentially, the Elections clause of the US constitution states that “The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.” > > Unless the PA state supreme court is deemed to be the legislature of PA, then I think that’s problematic. The power to draw federal districts is derived from the federal constitution, not the state one. The PA Supreme Court isn’t the legislature, but the state Constitution says what that legislature can and can’t enact, and the state Supreme Court gets to decide how to interpret that state Constitution. Now the Supreme Court _could_ decide that the U.S. Constitution has carved out an area of law where a state Constitution has no authority over the state legislature and the laws it passes. This would seem kinda funny because presumably the state legislature passed the provisions in the state Constitution to begin with. Or SCOTUS _could_ say that this is an area of the state Constitution where the SC of PA has no authority to interpret the state Constitution. But _somebody_ has to interpret even that part of the state Constitution, and it would be a new thing under the sun to say the legislature has that responsibility. ETA: Excuse me if either of these possibilities seems a bit farfetched to me. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/27 "2018-02-01T18:39:36Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If the people of PA are unhappy with the outcome, then they can act by voting. Well, let’s see: the people who are unhappy are the ones whose voting strength has been diluted by the gerrymandering, so that even if they’re a solid majority of those voting, they still can’t change which party is in the majority in the legislature. (You think the GOP majority in the PA legislature neglected to gerrymander their own districts?) Catch-22. And coup by legislature, if judicial intervention is blocked. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/28 "2018-02-01T18:45:06Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Bone** , again, you, or I, or SCOTUS for that sake, could disagree with the PA SC interpretation of the state Constitution and the laws derived or not. We can believe it was completely an incorrect decision based on a misread of the intent of the districting commission and based on a faulty rationale. Don’t matter. They get to make that call. I agree with that. I think the point of contention is whether the PA state supreme court is actually interpreting the state constitution in their ruling, and if the state supreme court interpretation is violative of the US constitution. I’m not seeing any authority in the PA state constitution that would allow the court to assume the role of drawing the districts. That’s not interpreting the law, that’s making up the law. The law as I understand it says the legislature gets to draw the districts (within the constructs of the state and federal laws, as applicable). If a state has a constitutional balanced budget requirement, but the legislature cannot come to terms in a given year, I don’t think it would be appropriate for the courts to step in and say that they are going to write the new budget. I think also, a lot of the variability about what could be, etc. stems from the lack of actual opinion. The reasoning the court used isn’t available so it’s difficult to analyze it. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > The PA Supreme Court isn’t the legislature, but the state Constitution says what that legislature can and can’t enact, and the state Supreme Court gets to decide how to interpret that state Constitution. I think a more likely path is that SCOTUS puts a stay on the ruling pending the Wisconsin outcome. If they really wanted to rebutt the state supreme court, they could say that the court overstepped and they have no ability to redraw lines since that is the sole province of the legislature. The state supreme court could say the districts violate state law in some way, but they went too far in saying the court will redraw them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/29 "2018-02-01T18:54:38Z")
Will the opinion say specifically which of the boundaries are objectionable? Not that the court would redraw the boundaries, just say which ones are OK and which are not. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/30 "2018-02-01T19:04:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, let’s see: the people who are unhappy are the ones whose voting strength has been diluted by the gerrymandering, so that even if they’re a solid majority of those voting, they still can’t change which party is in the majority in the legislature. (You think the GOP majority in the PA legislature neglected to gerrymander their own districts?) > > Catch-22. And coup by legislature, if judicial intervention is blocked. This is somewhat accurate in the conclusion, but wrong in the analysis. The people voting for the state legislators who set the district boundaries for federal elections are elected via the state legislative districts. Those state districts are subject to the rules put forth by the redistricting commission. [Article II, Section 17 of the Pennsylvania Constitution](http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=00&div=0&chpt=2) sets out these guidelines for the commission and Section 16 lays out the guidelines for the districts (contiguous, etc.) This process also contemplates the state supreme court stepping in if necessary, but this is for the state legislative districts, not the federal ones. So the people who are unhappy with the federal districts can vote for different representatives, and ostensibly their voting strength is secured and not diluted because the PA state constitution protects it via the Legislative Reapportionment Commission. In other words, your reasoning here is entirely wrong. But you are right that if the legislature doesn’t act, then they would be SOL. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/31 "2018-02-02T02:42:30Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I don’t know, but this does seem like a good use of the ‘so I’m wrong rule’. If the people of PA are unhappy with the outcome, then they can act by voting. That’s pretty ironic. How many more votes than the majority will PA voters need in order to counterbalance the gerrymandering that Republicans are deliberately using to prevent it? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/32 "2018-02-02T02:50:42Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > So the people who are unhappy with the federal districts can vote for different representatives, and ostensibly their voting strength is secured and not diluted because the PA state constitution protects it via the Legislative Reapportionment Commission. In other words, your reasoning here is entirely wrong. But you are right that if the legislature doesn’t act, then they would be SOL. Really? The same commission that draws the Congressional districts draws the state districts, and we’re supposed to believe that no gerrymandering occurs there, in a state in which the vote for President and Congressmen were nearly equal between Pubs and Dems, yet the State Assembly is in a 2:1 ratio of Pub Assemblymen to Dems? Somehow, I’m not buying that. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/33 "2018-02-02T02:59:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Really? The same commission that draws the Congressional districts draws the state districts, and we’re supposed to believe that no gerrymandering occurs there, in a state in which the vote for President and Congressmen were nearly equal between Pubs and Dems, yet the State Assembly is in a 2:1 ratio of Pub Assemblymen to Dems? > > Somehow, I’m not buying that. I think you missed the point of post #30. Because what that post lays out is that it’s not the same group that draws state legislative districts that draw federal congressional districts. Did you know that? I’m sure some kind of gerrymandering happens at the state level too. That’s politics. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/34 "2018-02-02T04:00:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Do you believe that the state supreme court has the authority to draw districts? I don’t think that is a a power they have. > > The timing seems unreasonable to me, and as a co equal branch the legislature should contest it. Yes, they have the power to resolve a court case by imposing a remedy. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/35 "2018-02-02T04:04:17Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Yes, they have the power to resolve a court case by imposing a remedy. Yes in the general sense, but I’m asking about this specific one about redrawing districts. Do you think the court has the power to redraw federal legislative districts? Given the Elections clause, I’m contending that they don’t unless delegated that power. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/36 "2018-02-02T05:27:49Z")
Sorry, I don’t know how I managed to make the same mistake twice…the ratio is actually 3:2 (120-80). So not quite as bad as I portrayed, but still pretty bad. But saying “well, the voters can take it if they want to” seems a bit disingenuous to me when there’s still clearly a large gap between proportion of votes and seats, regardless of who drew up or approved the districts. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/37 "2018-02-02T05:45:40Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Given the Elections clause, I’m contending that they don’t unless delegated that power. The court has been delegated the “supreme judicial power of the Commonwealth” by the legislative process of the state. That seems like it’s universal, and therefore encompasses this. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/38 "2018-02-02T10:34:38Z")
It seems like it could end up in SCOTUS because it is a power stuggle between two branches of government of the same state which could be seen as screaming out for federal intervention. Or maybe the U.S. Congress can interdict somehow. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/39 "2018-02-02T13:25:26Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > It seems like it could end up in SCOTUS because it is a power stuggle between two branches of government of the same state which could be seen as screaming out for federal intervention. > > Or maybe the U.S. Congress can interdict somehow. Yes. Congress can pass laws about how districting occurs. Those laws can then be challenged regarding their constitutionality and how they are to be interpreted. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/40 "2018-02-02T14:39:54Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Or maybe the U.S. Congress can interdict somehow. And following up on **DSeid** , ‘can’ means different things in the abstract v. in the current political environment. The Republicans would need nine Dem Senators to help pass any law they favored, and they’re not going to push any plan that could get nine Dem votes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912.md?page=3)