# Pa. state Senate leader refuses court order on redrawing district maps **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 31, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912 "2018-01-31T22:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/61 "2018-02-05T17:00:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In terms of determining constitutionality, they are no co-equals. If the Legislature is not willing to uphold the constitution, then the courts must. Co-equal in power is a general term, not co-equal in executing all their duties. In other words, if the PA state legislature really wanted to, they could defund the court system (to the extent not prohibited by the state constitution). That would be a dick move, but they control the purse so to speak. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > So if there have to be districts, and the existing districts are unconstitutional, then either the unconstitutional districts remain in place, or the legislature draws new, compliant districts, or the court draws new, compliant districts. Those are the only options. > > And if the legislature chooses to take itself out of play, then there are only two options: either the unconstitutional districts remain in place, or the court draws new, compliant districts. If the second choice doesn’t exist, then the court’s power to rule the existing districts unconstitutional is toothless and meaningless - mere words that the legislature can overrule merely by ignoring them. First, the sense urgency is not terribly urgent. The current districts were drawn in the 2010/11 time frame. Only now has the court ruled, and given the legislature just over two weeks to come up with new ones. The court itself created the urgency by delaying ruling for so long and setting the deadline so tight. This is compounded by the court not releasing the reasoning it is employing for determining the current districts are unconstitutional. How is the legislature supposed to comply if no rationale is given? _Fix the problem right now, but I’m not going to tell you what is causing the problem!_ Second, the Elections clause specifically gives the US Congress a role here, so there are more than the options you’ve laid out. Third, the legislature hasn’t been given reasonable time to act. This is analogous to what has happened in North Carolina. The fact pattern is slightly different, but essentially SCOTUS put a stay that forced a redrawing on an accelerated timeline so that court challenges could proceed. But ultimately yes, if we ignore US Congressional actions, and SCOTUS actions, I do believe that if the legislature simply refuses to draw new districts, or if they continue to advance districts that are violative of the directives of the court (if they ever release their opinion), in no circumstances would I believe the court has the ability to draw the districts themselves. The PA legislature retains plenary power in this area unless their state constitution is amended, or a new law is passed. Voters are the last line of defense. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/62 "2018-02-05T17:08:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think it’s within the authority of the court to say the way it was done was improper somehow - I would want to see the opinion before opining on the specifics because the rationale they use is just as important as the conclusion. I do think it’s difficult to implement a ruling without being aware of the basis and reasoning of the ruling. > > I don’t think it’s within the power of the court to draw the districts themselves. And the idea that this lawsuit has been brewing for many years, but because of the timing created solely by the court, the legislature has just over 2 weeks to redraw districts or else the court will? That also seems unreasonable. My understanding is that PA also has rules around how long a bill must be introduced for, so the time constraints are especially tight. Those constraints seem like a ploy by the court to make it more likely they will be able to draw the districts. These two positions are inconsistent. If the Court does not have the power to draw the districts themselves, then they also do not have the power to declare the districting improper. Because if they declare the districts improper but can’t draw their own, what’s to stop the legislature from just ignoring them? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/63 "2018-02-05T17:16:41Z")
Court sanctions? Ordering the legislature to do it again is certainly within a courts purview. If the don’t the court can hold them in contempt and sanction them until it’s completed to the courts satisfaction. As I said upthread, though, a court may hold that the time required for that may harm the voters and do it itself. The legislature can then revisit it after the next census. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/64 "2018-02-05T17:20:07Z")
Meanwhile SCOTUS now having had time to let a response to the request for a stay be submitted, and very aware that time is critical here, has not yet issued said stay, or to anything I have heard (and you’d think it would be news) more about it. If tomorrow morning does by with no announcement from them one I think can reasonably conclude they do not buy the argument, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/65 "2018-02-05T17:23:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > These two positions are inconsistent. If the Court does not have the power to draw the districts themselves, then they also do not have the power to declare the districting improper. Because if they declare the districts improper but can’t draw their own, what’s to stop the legislature from just ignoring them? Voters? Your position is directly contradicted by the situation in North Carolina. There the court ruled the districts unconstitutional, yet they did not redraw the districts themselves. Clearly they had the power to declare the districting improper, though based on a novel idea. This isn’t a new conflict with divided powers. When a court declares a law unconstitutional, that doesn’t mean they can write a new law. Ruling something unconstitutional is distinct from assuming that power themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/66 "2018-02-05T17:25:27Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Meanwhile SCOTUS now having had time to let a response to the request for a stay be submitted, and very aware that time is critical here, has not yet issued said stay, or to anything I have heard (and you’d think it would be news) more about it. If tomorrow morning does by with no announcement from them one I think can reasonably conclude they do not buy the argument, yes? It looks that way, though I would extend that date to the 9th - the day the PA court gave as a deadline IIRC. After that the prospects for my position get weaker. SCOTUS could still step in after the PA court starts/finishes drawing the lines themselves, but I think that becomes more far fetched as time goes on. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/67 "2018-02-05T17:27:23Z")
No, Bone. But there’s a history of courts saying, “You assholes fix this pronto or this court will.” So it’s not there’s not precedent in procedure. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/68 "2018-02-05T17:39:20Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > First, the sense urgency is not terribly urgent. The current districts were drawn in the 2010/11 time frame. Only now has the court ruled, and given the legislature just over two weeks to come up with new ones. The court itself created the urgency by delaying ruling for so long and setting the deadline so tight. This is compounded by the court not releasing the reasoning it is employing for determining the current districts are unconstitutional. How is the legislature supposed to comply if no rationale is given? _Fix the problem right now, but I’m not going to tell you what is causing the problem!_ > > Second, the Elections clause specifically gives the US Congress a role here, so there are more than the options you’ve laid out. > > Third, the legislature hasn’t been given reasonable time to act. This is analogous to what has happened in North Carolina. The fact pattern is slightly different, but essentially SCOTUS put a stay that forced a redrawing on an accelerated timeline so that court challenges could proceed. First, none of this is germane to my post. Interesting, but completely off the point. > [@](#): > > I do believe that if the legislature simply refuses to draw new districts, or if they continue to advance districts that are violative of the directives of the court (if they ever release their opinion), in no circumstances would I believe the court has the ability to draw the districts themselves. The PA legislature retains plenary power in this area unless their state constitution is amended, or a new law is passed. Voters are the last line of defense. Not just ‘last’, but rather the _only_ line of defense, if the legislature should fail to act. The voters are qualified to be the sole line of defense on many issues where the legislature fails to act. Constitutionality isn’t one of those. ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/69 "2018-02-05T17:56:24Z")
Appeal rejected. The districts get redrawn following the state court’s plan. > **[Court allows Pennsylvania to redraw GOP-favored district map](https://apnews.com/acf477136d9145f486b252acb41e24a3)** > > HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) — The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday let a court-ordered redrawing of congressional districts in Pennsylvania proceed, raising Democratic hopes that a revamped map might yield them several more seats this fall... ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/70 "2018-02-05T18:00:51Z")
> [@Mithras](#): > > Appeal rejected. The districts get redrawn following the state court’s plan. > > [Court allows Pennsylvania to redraw GOP-favored district map](https://apnews.com/acf477136d9145f486b252acb41e24a3) Win some lose some. My arguments were not persuasive enough apparently. I’ll have to let Alito know next time we talk. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/71 "2018-02-05T18:07:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Bone** : > > This isn’t a new conflict with divided powers. When a court declares a law unconstitutional, that doesn’t mean they can write a new law. Ruling something unconstitutional is distinct from assuming that power themselves. If a court rules a law unconstitutional without writing a replacement, then that just means that we don’t have that law. That’s possible. But if the court were to rule a districting unconstitutional without drawing up a replacement, and the legislature also refused to draw up a replacement, then we wouldn’t have a districting, which is not possible. The legislature can avoid this turn of events by drawing up new, valid districts on their own, but if they don’t, then there has to be some districting, and where does it come from? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/72 "2018-02-05T18:11:35Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Voters? Your position is directly contradicted by the situation in North Carolina. There the court ruled the districts unconstitutional, yet they did not redraw the districts themselves. Clearly they had the power to declare the districting improper, though based on a novel idea. > > This isn’t a new conflict with divided powers. When a court declares a law unconstitutional, that doesn’t mean they can write a new law. Ruling something unconstitutional is distinct from assuming that power themselves. It’s academic now, but redistricting is not creating a new law. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/73 "2018-02-05T18:34:27Z")
SCOTUS has denied the GOP’s request to delay the redrawing of the districts. > **[Supreme Court Won't Let Pennsylvania GOP Delay Drawing New Congressional Map](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/supreme-court-pennsylvania-gerrymandering_n_5a74bf28e4b06ee97af274d4?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009)** > > Legal experts saw the GOP appeal to the Supreme Court as a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/74 "2018-02-05T18:36:11Z")
**davidm** got here faster than I did even! [AP story here](https://apnews.com/acf477136d9145f486b252acb41e24a3/In-blow-to-GOP,-Supreme-Court-won't-block-PA-redistricting): > [@](#): > > Justice Samuel Alito, who handles emergency appeals from Pennsylvania, rejected the request from the GOP leaders and voters that the court put on hold an order from the state Supreme Court that could now produce new congressional districts in the coming two weeks. > > The Pennsylvania high court ruled last month that the map of 18 districts violated the state constitution because it unfairly benefited Republicans. > > The U.S. Supreme Court typically does not review state court decisions based on a state’s constitution, but the Republicans asked the high court to make an exception. > > The decision comes just four days before the Republican-controlled Legislature’s deadline for submitting a replacement map for Democratic Gov. Tom Wolf to consider. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/75 "2018-02-05T19:51:41Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Voters? Your position is directly contradicted by the situation in North Carolina. There the court ruled the districts unconstitutional, yet they did not redraw the districts themselves. [Close enough: they hired someone else to draw the districts for them](http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article195625504.html). Sure, first they ordered the NCGA to redraw the maps; but when it became clear the NCGA just wanted to rules-lawyer their way to a victory without ever addressing the underlying problem, the court absolutely “redrew” the districts with the aid of an expert. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/76 "2018-02-05T20:18:32Z")
As my country lawyer granddad used to say, “another great theory ruined by the facts.” ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/77 "2018-02-06T02:05:29Z")
[Pennsylvania Representative Chris Dush](https://twitter.com/mattmfm/status/960667621598416896) has sent a memorandum calling for the impeachment of the five PA State Supreme Court justices who found the gerrymandering unconstitutional. Alas, all I’ve found thus far is an image of the memo, on my twitter feed, and I can’t copy/paste it, so excuse any errors. He details the order given in the case to submit a congressional districting plan that satisfies the requirements of the Pennsylvania Constitution. > [@](#): > > The five justices who signed this order that blatantly and clearly contradicts the plain language of the Pennsylvania Constitution, engaged in misbehavior in office. Wherefore, each is guilty of an impeachable offense warranting removal from office and disqualification to hold any office or trust or profit under this Commonwealth. I would ask you to please join me in co-sponsoring this legislation. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/78 "2018-02-06T02:38:17Z")
Hopefully Dush is just an isolated idiot who won’t get any support for this. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/79 "2018-02-06T03:01:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > **davidm** got here faster than I did even! > > [AP story here](https://apnews.com/acf477136d9145f486b252acb41e24a3/In-blow-to-GOP,-Supreme-Court-won't-block-PA-redistricting): Actually **Mithras** was ahead of both of you by over half an hour. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/80 "2018-02-06T03:42:20Z")
Dush is an appropriate name. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912.md?page=5)