# Pa. state Senate leader refuses court order on redrawing district maps **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 31, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912 "2018-01-31T22:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/121 "2018-02-10T20:24:27Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I wouldn’t consider 6 or 13 to be compact. If enactly, actually think this would be pretty compact as far as districtings I’ve seen put in place in my lifetime. Of course there could be confirmation bias going on since I’m less likely to look at districtings that _aren’t_ thought to be gerrymandered, but it nothing strikes me obviously geographically silly. Which isn’t to say that they didn’t run a their optimization algorithms to try maximize both partisan advantage and compactness, but this doesn’t look objectionably uncompact to me. I think the intent is key here and I do not know what that is. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/122 "2018-02-11T02:37:14Z")
I think it’s prolly going back to the court: > [@](#): > > Pennsylvania Democrats on Saturday described a revised congressional district map being proposed by Republican leaders as too partisan, citing as evidence the results of the 2016 presidential campaign. > > A spokesman for state House Democrats said their analysis of the GOP proposal indicates Republican President Donald Trump would have collected more votes in 13 of 18 districts, one more than he actually did win. Nice try, Pennsylvania Republicans; nice try. :rolleyes: Buncha jackasses. ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/123 "2018-02-11T03:26:41Z")
They divided Allegheny county into three districts where one looks to be all of Pittsburgh and the other two are attached to as many rural counties as possible. If you’re trying to make districts that are both compact and minimize subdivisions, the non-Pittsburgh parts of the county should probably be with southern Butler and/or eastern Westmoreland counties (assuming the rest of Allegheny on its own isn’t populous enough to be a district). I suspect the Philadelphia area is similar. That if you know nothing about the area and just look at the blobs relative to the counties, it looks okay. But if you know the areas, it’s obviously designed for partisan benefit and makes no sense otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/124 "2018-02-11T06:47:04Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I think it’s prolly going back to the court:Nice try, Pennsylvania Republicans; nice try. :rolleyes: Buncha jackasses. Your link ain’t working for me **Bo**. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/125 "2018-02-11T07:01:38Z")
[Sorry about that](https://apnews.com/796b7a8e32bc44aa8b89021a7d884a1c/Democrats-see-partisanship-in-GOP-Pennsylvania-district-map); thanks for the heads-up, **Kolak**. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/126 "2018-02-13T21:29:43Z")
And the governor has [vetoed the new map](https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/13/politics/pennsylvania-gov-veto-redrawn-congressional-map/index.html) as still too partisan: > [@](#): > > “The analysis by my team shows that, like the 2011 map, the map submitted to my office by Republican leaders is still a gerrymander,” Wolf said in a statement Tuesday. “Their map clearly seeks to benefit one political party, which is the essence of why the court found the current map to be unconstitutional.” ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/127 "2018-02-13T21:42:03Z")
See they had plenty of time to make a new map before the deadline. Even had time to bake in almost as much GOP advantage as their previous map. So this idea that the deadline was too onerous to allow them to create a new map was pretty much a non issue. They just didn’t want to do it, and that, as far as I am aware, is not a valid reason to refuse to comply with a court order. So now that they blew their chance to make a map acceptable to both sides, a map will be provided for them. All they had to do was be fair, but they refused. So here we are. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/128 "2018-02-13T22:12:52Z")
Well, one thing that is different now is that the **shape** of the districts is no longer at issue. A court cannot look at the new districts and use their unusual shape against them. This distills the argument in the case to the pure assertion that gerrymandering is unconstitutional (by the state constitution) because it strips power from those voters who are [party X]. Whether that argument can/will stand scrutiny over time is questionable. ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/129 "2018-02-13T22:24:23Z")
That’s not really relevant here. The court dictated the process for creating the new map. The process was not, two members of the legislature draw up a map and unless someone can put forward a constitutional argument as to why it’s illegal, that’s the map we’ll use. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/130 "2018-02-14T13:41:28Z")
> [@Mithras](#): > > That’s not really relevant here. The court dictated the process for creating the new map. The process was not, two members of the legislature draw up a map and unless someone can put forward a constitutional argument as to why it’s illegal, that’s the map we’ll use. Actually, it could very WELL be relevant. While the US Supreme Court did not issue an emergency stay at the request of the Republicans, there could be a different outcome now if the Republicans sue or file for Cert over the process. This is a long way from being “over” in a legal sense. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/131 "2018-02-15T00:52:04Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Actually, it could very WELL be relevant. While the US Supreme Court did not issue an emergency stay at the request of the Republicans, there could be a different outcome now if the Republicans sue or file for Cert over the process … Why would you think so? Alito saw a court ruling that stated very clearly that the trigger for the PA SC to cause an outside expert to create a redistricting plan would be if either the legislature failed to create one or if the governor failed to sign off on one by the deadline dates set forth. Period, end. Determining if a plan that the legislature presents is or is not still gerrymandering was not a criteria. Given that this is exactly one of the several possible paths the PA SC ruling allowed for, that Alito said is not for SCOTUS to get involved in, on what basis would he decide otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/132 "2018-02-16T11:58:20Z")
Governor Wolf has submitted a new map to the PA Supreme Court. [https://www.governor.pa.gov/governor-wolf-submits-a-fairer-congressional-map-to-supreme-court/](https://www.governor.pa.gov/governor-wolf-submits-a-fairer-congressional-map-to-supreme-court/) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/133 "2018-02-16T12:30:57Z")
Now how the heck does _that_ comply with the court ruling? The ruling was explicit that _both_ the legislature submitting a map _and_ the governor signing off on the map _they_ created must happen by the designated deadlines or they would cause a map to be created by their designated outside independent expert(s). The governor creating one is not an option, no matter how fair that map is. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/134 "2018-02-16T13:15:06Z")
The same way that the legislature submitting one does. Both need to agree, so one proposes a map, and the other decides if they like it. If the legislature decides that the governor’s map is acceptable, then we’re done. Of course, it’s likely that the legislature will not so decide, which puts this largely in the realm of political theater. But political theater is still a big part of real politics. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/135 "2018-02-16T14:23:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If the legislature decides that the governor’s map is acceptable, then we’re done. Only until the next suit is filed, charging that the new map is gerrymandered as well. That would occur no later than the next day. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/136 "2018-02-16T14:24:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The same way that the legislature submitting one does. Both need to agree, so one proposes a map, and the other decides if they like it. If the legislature decides that the governor’s map is acceptable, then we’re done. > > Of course, it’s likely that the legislature will not so decide, which puts this largely in the realm of political theater. But political theater is still a big part of real politics. Nope, by the ruling we are already done. This is not largely political theater; it is exclusively so, and dumb theater at that. The governor had until the end of yesterday, 2/15, to sign off on a plan submitted by the legislature (by the previous date), or the contingency of the court causing one to be created by their selected independent expert(s) would be triggered. The legislature could say this is perfect and it would not matter. The only way that map gets used is if the court selected independent expert(s) chose that map. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/137 "2018-02-16T19:35:14Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Now how the heck does _that_ comply with the court ruling? The ruling was explicit that _both_ the legislature submitting a map _and_ the governor signing off on the map _they_ created must happen by the designated deadlines or they would cause a map to be created by their designated outside independent expert(s). The governor creating one is not an option, no matter how fair that map is. Couldn’t the court look at it, decide it’s good and choose the Governor as their expert? Or they could give the Governor’s map to their chosen expert and let him or her either pass on it or propose a different one. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/138 "2018-02-16T19:41:23Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Why would you think so? > > Alito saw a court ruling that stated very clearly that the trigger for the PA SC to cause an outside expert to create a redistricting plan would be if either the legislature failed to create one or if the governor failed to sign off on one by the deadline dates set forth. Period, end. > > Determining if a plan that the legislature presents is or is not still gerrymandering was not a criteria. Given that this is exactly one of the several possible paths the PA SC ruling allowed for, that Alito said is not for SCOTUS to get involved in, on what basis would he decide otherwise? Because a denial of emergency stay or injunction is not a ruling on the merits. If cert is sought later and granted, a ruling on the merits could proceed. > [@DSeid](#): > > Now how the heck does _that_ comply with the court ruling? The ruling was explicit that _both_ the legislature submitting a map _and_ the governor signing off on the map _they_ created must happen by the designated deadlines or they would cause a map to be created by their designated outside independent expert(s). The governor creating one is not an option, no matter how fair that map is. It doesn’t comply with the ruling, but the court is treading new ground her and could essentially rule whatever it wants as constitutional. That’s part of the danger of the court usurping the process. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/139 "2018-02-16T21:57:28Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Couldn’t the court look at it, decide it’s good and choose the Governor as their expert? > > Or they could give the Governor’s map to their chosen expert and let him or her either pass on it or propose a different one. The ruling stated a process and they need to follow that process. They cannot just do whatever they want. Yes the court designated expert could create a map that looks exactly like what the governor created and it would be unsurprising if the map created and the map proposed by the governor in fact are nearly identical - the governor’s map is likely close to neutral. But the process now has to be that the court designated expert(s) create a new map. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/140 "2018-02-19T20:32:22Z")
[AP says](https://apnews.com/254907af4e2348ff9cc1cdbc7f8fa5b8/Pennsylvania-court-issues-overhauled-congressional-map) the court has released a new map. Found an image [here](https://twitter.com/timelywriter/status/965673336251518976); not sure of the reliability of the source. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912.md?page=8)