# Pa. state Senate leader refuses court order on redrawing district maps **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 31, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912 "2018-01-31T22:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/161 "2018-02-20T19:02:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Okay. Assuming I suspend my disbelief about the premise, sure. If the SC rules it unconstitutional to refuse to hold confirmation hearings and the Senate **still** refuses to even hold votes? Sure. I’d be fine with them taking action as described above. Ok. I think that illustrates the key difference in our positions. I wouldn’t be okay with SCOTUS acting that way, and I’m not okay with the PA Supreme Court acting as they did. I do not believe the courts should act as super legislators or super governments, rewriting or re-interpreting the law when people and voters are too mired in politics or ignorance. Some questions and issues are political in nature and not justiciable - I think the PA issue and the Garland issue should fall into that category. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/162 "2018-02-20T19:20:21Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Ok. I think that illustrates the key difference in our positions. I wouldn’t be okay with SCOTUS acting that way, and I’m not okay with the PA Supreme Court acting as they did. I do not believe the courts should act as super legislators or super governments, rewriting or re-interpreting the law when people and voters are too mired in politics or ignorance. Some questions and issues are political in nature and not justiciable - I think the PA issue and the Garland issue should fall into that category. So there’s NO recourse when a branch of government lays down their responsibility? The elected POTUS doesn’t get to make a SC appointment at all because one party decided that they’d rather explode a nuclear bomb on Capitol Hill than actually do their job? It’s no wonder the Republican party is such a gigantic clusterfuck if that’s how their membership feels. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/163 "2018-02-20T19:34:15Z")
In that case, **Bone** , you’re about [215 years too late](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison). ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/164 "2018-02-20T19:38:45Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > So there’s NO recourse when a branch of government lays down their responsibility? The elected POTUS doesn’t get to make a SC appointment at all because one party decided that they’d rather explode a nuclear bomb on Capitol Hill than actually do their job? > . That’s how it’s set up. If the Supreme Court made outrageous unconstitutional decisions or refused to judge a highly contentious case would you favor removing them without a full Senate vote? If the President decides to declare war without Congressional assent, do you abandon the impeachment process? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/165 "2018-02-20T19:39:04Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Ok. I think that illustrates the key difference in our positions. I wouldn’t be okay with SCOTUS acting that way, and I’m not okay with the PA Supreme Court acting as they did. I do not believe the courts should act as super legislators or super governments, rewriting or re-interpreting the law when people and voters are too mired in politics or ignorance. Some questions and issues are political in nature and not justiciable - I think the PA issue and the Garland issue should fall into that category. Especially when those politics or that ignorance preserve Republican advantage. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/166 "2018-02-20T19:47:36Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Especially when those politics or that ignorance preserve Republican advantage. Because he’s a crazy Trumpist or something, right? He must be crazy in some way to not agree with you. Or deeply ignorant. It’s so obvious to you that only a dumb crazy person would disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/167 "2018-02-20T19:59:00Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > So there’s NO recourse when a branch of government lays down their responsibility? The elected POTUS doesn’t get to make a SC appointment at all because one party decided that they’d rather explode a nuclear bomb on Capitol Hill than actually do their job? > > It’s no wonder the Republican party is such a gigantic clusterfuck if that’s how their membership feels. I assume Bone considers legislative elections the appropriate recourse. If people were unhappy with the republican stonewalling on Merrick Garland, they had the opportunity in 2016 to replace those legislators with people who were willing to hold a hearing. Their re-election implies that the people either approve or don’t care about their ethically repugnant behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/168 "2018-02-20T19:59:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Because he’s a crazy Trumpist or something, right? He must be crazy in some way to not agree with you. Or deeply ignorant. It’s so obvious to you that only a dumb crazy person would disagree. Congratulations on that fourteen-step jump from reality. Please continue to put words into my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/169 "2018-02-20T20:17:23Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I assume Bone considers legislative elections the appropriate recourse. If people were unhappy with the republican stonewalling on Merrick Garland, they had the opportunity in 2016 to replace those legislators with people who were willing to hold a hearing. Their re-election implies that the people either approve or don’t care about their ethically repugnant behavior. Couple of problems here. 1. The U.S. Senate does not democratically represent the population of America. It is heavily slanted to smaller, usually redder, states. For example, a Senator from Idaho represents a much smaller amount of people than a Senator from California. 2. Not every Senator is up for election each time we have an election. Only 1/3 of Senate seats were up for election in 2016. So not everyone got to voice their opinions on this Senate in the last election. Therefore, you cannot take the results of the last Senate election to mean that “the people either approve or don’t care about their ethically repugnant behavior”. The fact is that having elections be the only recourse for entire branches of Government not doing their jobs, or refusing to follow a court order, is insufficient to maintain a functional democracy. Especially when many of the actions being taken are in service to cementing electoral advantage, as in this PA situation. It’s simultaneously claiming that elections are our only hope, and then attacking the ability of those elections to accurately represent the population’s will. ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/170 "2018-02-20T20:28:10Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Two branches couldn’t find an agreement, so they called on the third branch to resolve it. How is that “usurping the process”? > [@Bone](#): > > Because the rules as they currently exist don’t provide for the court to resolve it in the way that they did. [From the PA SSC ruling:](http://www.pacourts.us/assets/files/setting-6015/file-6790.pdf?cb=842ff7) > [@](#): > > Our approach is also buttressed by, and entirely consistent with, the United > States Supreme Court’s landmark ruling in Baker v. Carr, 369 U.S. 186 (1962), and > more recent **decisions from the United States Supreme Court which make concrete the state judiciary’s ability to formulate a redistricting plan, when necessary.** See, e.g., > Growe; Scott v. Germano, 381 U.S. 407 (1965) (per curiam). As described by the high Court in Wise, “Legislative bodies should not leave their reapportionment tasks to the federal courts; but when those with legislative responsibilities do not respond, or the imminence of a state election makes it impractical for them to do so, it becomes the ‘unwelcome obligation,’ Conner v. Finch, [431 U.S. 407, 415 (1977)], of the federal court to devise and impose a reapportionment plan pending later legislative action.” Wise, 437 U.S. at 540. **The same authority to act is inherent in the state judiciary.** ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/171 "2018-02-20T20:34:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That’s how it’s set up. If the Supreme Court made outrageous unconstitutional decisions or refused to judge a highly contentious case would you favor removing them without a full Senate vote? If the President decides to declare war without Congressional assent, do you abandon the impeachment process? The constitution is very clear on how to remove a SC justice, and is clear on who is allowed to declare war. Doing either of those things would be directly against the constitution. But, the senate does actually have that power. If the senate feels that the SC is being derelict in its duties, then it can fire them all and empanel new ones. What similar check does the SC have against the senate being derelict in its duties? This is something that is not addressed in the constitution. Someone needs to make a decision on it, who would you propose that be? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/172 "2018-02-20T20:37:01Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Couple of problems here. I don’t disagree that those are frustrating problems. If I had been around for the writing of the constitution, I would have had some suggestions, you can bet. I am not saying that elections are true and objective bellwethers of public opinion, but that elections are the bellwethers that the constitution provides us. If they are insufficient, we need to either amend the constitution or draw up another one. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/173 "2018-02-20T20:57:10Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t disagree that those are frustrating problems. If I had been around for the writing of the constitution, I would have had some suggestions, you can bet. > > I am not saying that elections are true and objective bellwethers of public opinion, but that elections are the bellwethers that the constitution provides us. If they are insufficient, we need to either amend the constitution or draw up another one. Or, and here’s a crazy idea, let the courts be the check that they are supposed to be in a system of checks and balances. I know, really radical, but I think it just might work. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/174 "2018-02-20T21:05:37Z")
You say supposed to be as if it’s obvious that the court has the authority to assume legislative roles left by the wayside and I don’t think that’s as universally agreed as you’d prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/175 "2018-02-20T21:13:28Z")
The alternative is let one party cement permanent advantage by refusing to follow court orders. I don’t see how democracy survives if that becomes the new normal. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/176 "2018-02-20T21:24:27Z")
What court order wasn’t followed re: Merrick Garland? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/177 "2018-02-20T21:26:26Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You say supposed to be as if it’s obvious that the court has the authority to assume legislative roles left by the wayside and I don’t think that’s as universally agreed as you’d prefer. Marbury vs Madison was a poor decision, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/178 "2018-02-20T21:34:47Z")
:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/179 "2018-02-20T21:38:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The constitution is very clear on how to remove a SC justice, and is clear on who is allowed to declare war. Doing either of those things would be directly against the constitution. > > But, the senate does actually have that power. If the senate feels that the SC is being derelict in its duties, then it can fire them all and empanel new ones. What similar check does the SC have against the senate being derelict in its duties? > > This is something that is not addressed in the constitution. Someone needs to make a decision on it, who would you propose that be? The Senate. You see, despite the classroom talk of co-equal branches, the Senate gets to choose the size of the Supreme Court and is the gate keeper of who populates it. By the structure set up by the founders, the SC jumping up and setting it’s own rules for inclusion would be quite outrageous. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912/180 "2018-02-20T21:41:49Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > What court order wasn’t followed re: Merrick Garland? This thread is about the PA Supreme court order that the GOP was refusing to cooperate with. Its right there in the thread title. The Garland thing was offered as an analogy, I don’t think we need to change the focus of the entire thread to just that. Simple question. If the GOP decides that it no longer has to follow the laws and begins doing anything it wants with respect to voting rights, and gerrymandering so that it can’t possibly lose elections, and it does not recognize the authority of the court, then what do we have here in America? It isn’t Democracy any more is it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-state-senate-leader-refuses-court-order-on-redrawing-district-maps/807912.md?page=10)