# PA Supreme Court tosses ALL convictions by Judge who sold kids to private prison **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772 "2009-10-30T20:25:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/1 "2009-10-30T20:25:05Z")
Story [Here](http://post-gazette.com/pg/09303/1009500-100.stm). “The Pennsylvania Supreme Court yesterday dismissed thousands of juvenile convictions issued by a judge charged in a corruption scandal, saying that none of the young offenders got a fair hearing.” (AP via the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette) Basically every conviction is every case former judge Mark Ciavarella heard between 2003 and 2008 was overturned, and only a handful were cleared for possible retrials. Earlier, many lower-level cases were overturned, but this ruling goes farther and doesn’t beat about the bush about it. Also, at some point since I last heard about this story, Ciavarella and some fellow corrupt judges’ plea agreement was rejected by Senior U.S. District Judge Edward M. Kosik. The wheels turn slowly, but it’s nice to see them turn. Previous Threads [thread=511936]here[/thread], [thread=506189]here[/thread] and [thread=506342]here[/thread]. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/2 "2009-10-30T20:40:43Z")
I see that Ciavarella has not yet been tried for his corruption. Might I suggest that his sentence, if found guilty, should be the total of all the sentences that he imposed while he was being bribed by that private prison. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/3 "2009-10-30T21:48:47Z")
Which part are we mad about? That Ciaverella is evil, and took the justice system down with him, or that the Supreme Court has thrown out all the convictions? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/4 "2009-10-30T22:00:19Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Which part are we mad about? That Ciaverella is evil, and took the justice system down with him, or that the Supreme Court has thrown out all the convictions? It seems to me that the Supreme Court made the only decision it could: if a judge is corrupt, and his corruption has affected his decisions, all those decisions must be overturned. The SC has done its best to restore faith in the judicial system. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/5 "2009-10-30T23:10:33Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I see that Ciavarella has not yet been tried for his corruption. Might I suggest that his sentence, if found guilty, should be the total of all the sentences that he imposed while he was being bribed by that private prison. The whole idea of a “Private prison” confounds me. There are some things that should not be operated for profit. The profit drive makes corruption possible. The private prison operators want more inmates so they can make more money and gives rise to the bribery. Without the bribe, the judge has no incentive for such wholesale corruption. Of course regular old mafia style corruption is still possible. But this opens a whole new avenue. The same thing, ISTM, is true of the military, police forces, fire departments and other services provided by the government. I’d like to see healthcare and utilities in that list, too, as recent fraud in the energy industry and the out-of-control health care costs demonstrate. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/6 "2009-10-30T23:19:44Z")
I do hope that Ciavarella shall enjoy a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense. And I do hope that at that trial he shall be sentenced to spend the rest of his life in a for-profit prison that cuts corners on luxury items such as food and clothing for prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/7 "2009-10-30T23:27:46Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > The whole idea of a “Private prison” confounds me. There are some things that should not be operated for profit. The profit drive makes corruption possible. The private prison operators want more inmates so they can make more money and gives rise to the bribery. Without the bribe, the judge has no incentive for such wholesale corruption. Of course regular old mafia style corruption is still possible. But this opens a whole new avenue. > > The same thing, ISTM, is true of the military, police forces, fire departments and other services provided by the government. I’d like to see healthcare and utilities in that list, too, as recent fraud in the energy industry and the out-of-control health care costs demonstrate. Publicly ran prisons aren’t immune from corruption, nor is the military, the police, or fire department. I agree that when you add profit-seeking entities into the mix it opens **new avenues** of corruption, but you’re simply mistaken if you think that is what makes “corruption possible.” I understand you may have been talking about this _specific_ act of corruption, but given the sweeping tone of your post you should have phrased things differently if that was your intention. Keep in mind whether or not a prison is ran by a for profit company, administrators of prisons still deal extensively with for profit companies. Prisons have many business partners for a wide range of things. Same goes for the military, police, et cetera. Not to mention there is always the potential for low level “individual” corruption (like police officers who pocket valuables found at crime scenes or soldiers who attempt to do the same in a war zone.) ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/8 "2009-10-31T01:01:55Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I understand you may have been talking about this _specific_ act of corruption, but given the sweeping tone of your post you should have phrased things differently if that was your intention. This is exactly what I meant. I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. > [@](#): > > Keep in mind whether or not a prison is ran by a for profit company, administrators of prisons still deal extensively with for profit companies. Prisons have many business partners for a wide range of things. > > Same goes for the military, police, et cetera. Not to mention there is always the potential for low level “individual” corruption (like police officers who pocket valuables found at crime scenes or soldiers who attempt to do the same in a war zone.) Fiscal corruption is bad and should be prosecuted vigorously. However, I think corrupting the justice system itself is more serious and more of a threat to society at large. Private prisons incents convictions for the one person in the system that is most responsible for ensuring that justice is fair. Under most other forms of corruption this incentive is not present. In fact the opposite is more likely. And, frankly, I think fewer convictions is not as bad one innocent person sent to jail. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/9 "2009-10-31T01:52:03Z")
Why has Ciavarella not stood trial yet? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/10 "2009-10-31T03:41:55Z")
I’m okay with this if and only if none of these cases involved a jury of some kind. (I would assume this is the case, but I haven’t been following this.) But, I must admit, it makes it sound like he was already found guilty. I’m surprised that more people aren’t disturbed my his being punished without a trial. I mean, I can understand it if that’s the way it is normally done, but it isn’t how the justice system is supposed to work in my idyllic mind. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/11 "2009-10-31T04:45:48Z")
Amen. Not that I usually try to mix church and state. He had better hope that God has mercy on his soul, because the justice system isn’t going to have any on his body. Neither will his fellow prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/12 "2009-10-31T06:33:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why has Ciavarella not stood trial yet? > [@BigT](#): > > But, I must admit, it makes it sound like he was already found guilty. He pleaded guilty in February, and and the judge rejected the deal in August because he didn’t think the penalty was enough. > [@](#): > > “Ciavarella’s admission that he received these payments, and that he failed to disclose his financial interests arising from the development of the juvenile facilities, thoroughly undermines the integrity of all juvenile proceedings before Ciavarella,” the Supreme Court said. > > The judges pleaded guilty in February to honest services fraud and tax evasion in a deal with prosecutors that called for a sentence of 87 months in prison. But the deal was rejected in August by Senior U.S. District Judge Edward M. Kosik, who said the two hadn’t fully accepted responsibility for the crimes, and the ex-judges switched their pleas to not guilty. > > A federal grand jury then returned a 48-count racketeering indictment against the judges, who await trial. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/13 "2009-10-31T17:25:03Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > It seems to me that the Supreme Court made the only decision it could: if a judge is corrupt, and his corruption has affected his decisions, all those decisions must be overturned. The SC has done its best to restore faith in the judicial system. I agree; I was just confused why this event has generated a bbq pit thread. I thought maybe **garygnu** was mad at the toss of the convictions. I guess it’s a new reason to be mad again at Ciavarella? Sort of, “see the extent of the damage he’s caused?” The OP didn’t really say. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/14 "2009-10-31T17:41:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He pleaded guilty in February, and and the judge rejected the deal in August because he didn’t think the penalty was enough. Danke. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/15 "2009-10-31T17:44:56Z")
48 counts of racketeering isn’t a light-weight set of charges, either. He’s going to be doing hard time for the rest of his life. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/16 "2009-10-31T18:02:37Z")
He’s pretty dumb to get caught up in this sort of thing. Will they try him as a dolt? ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/17 "2009-11-02T02:41:55Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 48 counts of racketeering isn’t a light-weight set of charges, either. He’s going to be doing hard time for the rest of his life. 😃 It’s always a shame to see someone throw away so much of their life, but after the kids’ lives he wrote off, I can’t say I have a lot of pity for the guy. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/18 "2009-11-02T17:59:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I see that Ciavarella has not yet been tried for his corruption. Might I suggest that his sentence, if found guilty, should be the total of all the sentences that he imposed while he was being bribed by that private prison. Yes. This would be a good way to “let the punishment fit the crime”. > [@](#): > > It’s always a shame to see someone throw away so much of their life, but after the kids’ lives he wrote off, I can’t say I have a lot of pity for the guy. This. Let each case he was involved in, carry a separate sentence, and let each sentence be served consecutively, not concurrently, so he never ever gets out. Let him rot. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/19 "2009-11-02T19:07:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He pleaded guilty in February, and and the judge rejected the deal in August because he didn’t think the penalty was enough. I’m thinking something more along these lines: [QUOTE=Herodotus] He left as general of all the troops upon the sea-coast Otanes, son of Sisamnes, whose father King Cambyses slew and flayed, because that he, being of the number of the royal judges, had taken money to give an unrighteous sentence. Therefore Cambyses slew and flayed Sisamnes, and cutting his skin into strips, stretched them across the seat of the throne whereon he had been wont to sit when he heard causes. Having so done Cambyses appointed the son of Sisamnes to be judge in his father’s room, and bade him never forget in what way his seat was cushioned. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772/20 "2009-11-02T19:36:54Z")
Gotta love the classics! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pa-supreme-court-tosses-all-convictions-by-judge-who-sold-kids-to-private-prison/515772.md?page=2)