# Pacifist opposition to Hitler **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2011, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680 "2011-02-26T08:03:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/1 "2011-02-26T08:03:42Z")
Based on some posts in other threads. Would a pacifist organization have been able to offer any significant opposition to Hitler and the Nazi regime? Either in Germany or from without? I don’t want to debate whether this would have been the most effective form of resistance. Just assume, for the sake of this thread, that you’re the leader of a group of dedicated pacifists who will not use any violent methods. That includes supporting other people who will use violence. Can you think of a non-violent campaign that would have had any reasonable effect against the Nazis? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/2 "2011-02-26T08:12:30Z")
How many people in this organisation? What is their budget? What are their connections? Are they active in 1932 or 1942? It seems pretty obvious that a group of 10 million activists in the public services in 1932 would have stopped the Nazis cold. Just shut down all their finances, make false accusations and get them imprisoned, infiltrate meetings and sabotage everything they try to do and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/3 "2011-02-26T08:18:29Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Would a pacifist organization have been able to offer any significant opposition to Hitler and the Nazi regime? Either in Germany or from without? Depends on the size of it, naturally. There’s no such thing as a victory by commando forces in nonviolent resistance: the success of any such endeavor depends very largely on the number of participants and their impact on public opinion. Personally, I don’t believe that any realistically-sized pacifist movement in Nazi Germany during the war would have been able to accomplish anything more than increasing the death toll at concentration camps. That’s not to say that **no** conceivable hypothetical pacifist movement could possibly have had any different effect. But I think that such a hypothetical movement would have had to sway a much larger proportion of hearts and minds than could be realistically expected in that particular historical context. ETA: Or in other words, what **Blake** said. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/4 "2011-02-26T08:19:39Z")
I’d like to keep it within the bounds of reason. Let’s say a few hundred people. Maybe a couple of thousand tops. As for the time, let’s go with any point from 1932 on. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/5 "2011-02-26T08:26:39Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > How many people in this organisation? What is their budget? What are their connections? Are they active in 1932 or 1942? Also, what are their goals? I think that the Rosenstrasse protest and the clerical opposition to the Nazi euthanasia program show that the Nazis were willing to (at least temporarily) accede to limited demands if made publicly by a small, determined group. But if this hypothetical group were to demand an end to all aggressive expansionism or anti-Jewish measures (that the Nazis not be Nazis, in other words) then I think they would have been eliminately in as quiet a way as was possible. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/6 "2011-02-26T08:26:56Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I’d like to keep it within the bounds of reason. Let’s say a few hundred people. Maybe a couple of thousand tops. As for the time, let’s go with any point from 1932 on. Then I stand by my earlier opinion: No. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/7 "2011-02-26T08:37:06Z")
Hard to see how. Too many pacifists refuse to identify and punish evil. Such an organization would most likely be as much a hindrance to to the Allies as the Axis. I think of that Catholic fool who protested outside the White House every day during the war asking the US to go to the peace table with Hitler. Both sides seemed to be equally evil to him. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/8 "2011-02-26T08:39:35Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It seems pretty obvious that a group of 10 million activists in the public services in 1932 would have stopped the Nazis cold. Just shut down all their finances, make false accusations and get them imprisoned, infiltrate meetings and sabotage everything they try to do and so forth. Someone who would imprison others under false pretenses is not a pacifist in any meaningful sense of the word, even if they get someone else to do their dirty work. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/9 "2011-02-26T08:42:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’d like to keep it within the bounds of reason. Let’s say a few hundred people. Maybe a couple of thousand tops. As for the time, let’s go with any point from 1932 on. That seems really small. I can’t imagine such a small organization accomplishing much in any country, let alone Nazi Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/10 "2011-02-26T08:42:51Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Someone who would imprison others under false pretenses is not a pacifist in any meaningful sense of the word, even if they get someone else to do their dirty work. [Incorrect.](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pacifist) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/11 "2011-02-26T09:12:06Z")
Just for comparison purposes, Gandhi’s 1930 “Salt Satyagraha” alone (civilly disobeying the colonial government’s ban on independent domestic salt manufacture) over the course of a year resulted in some 80,000 imprisonments among _millions_ of nonviolent protesters. And mind you, this was when the _satyagraha_ or nonviolent resistance approach had been officially adopted by the Indian National Congress as their chief strategy for seeking independence. And it still didn’t actually accomplish anything in the short run in terms of changing the imperial salt policy. I believe that in theory and in time, nonviolent resistance in a good cause can accomplish any purpose and overcome any evil. But it isn’t quick, cheap, or painless, and there are no guarantees that it will be effective in any given situation in the short term. And if the violent attackers are effective enough in the short term, then there isn’t going to be any long term. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/12 "2011-02-26T09:19:38Z")
I guess the question I’m asking is if there are situations where pacifism is hopeless and surrender or violence are the only answers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/13 "2011-02-26T09:24:10Z")
Personally, if I were in the situation I described, the best plan I would have would be to set up an underground railroad system to help Jews and other targetted people escape Germany. It wouldn’t be toppling the Nazi regime but it would be accomplishing something through non-violent means. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/14 "2011-02-26T09:25:31Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I guess the question I’m asking is if there are situations where pacifism is hopeless and surrender or violence are the only answers. No. However, there are many situations where pacifism is realistically **incapable of accomplishing a particular short-term objective** , and surrender, violence, or principled acceptance of death while nonviolently resisting to the last are the only answers. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/15 "2011-02-26T09:31:22Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Personally, if I were in the situation I described, the best plan I would have would be to set up an underground railroad system to help Jews and other targetted people escape Germany. It wouldn’t be toppling the Nazi regime but it would be accomplishing something through non-violent means. Yep, that’s basically what [the folks of Le Chambon-sur-Lignon did](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Chambon-sur-Lignon): > [@](#): > > With the leadership of local minister André Trocmé and pastor Edouard Theis, beginning in 1942, the citizens of Chambon-sur-Lignon risked their lives to hide Jews who were being rounded up by the Nazi SS for shipment to the death camps. They were hidden in private homes, on farms in the area, as well as in public institutions. Whenever the Nazi patrols came searching, they were hidden in the countryside. After the war, one of the villagers recalled: “As soon as the soldiers left, we would go into the forest and sing a song. When they heard that song, the Jews knew it was safe to come home.” > > In addition to providing shelter, the citizens of the town obtained forged identification and ration cards for Jews to use and then helped them cross the border to the safety of neutral Switzerland. […] > > It is estimated that the people of Chambon-sur-Lignon saved between 3,000-5,000 Jews from certain death. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/16 "2011-02-26T15:07:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Based on some posts in other threads. > > Would a pacifist organization have been able to offer any significant opposition to Hitler and the Nazi regime? Either in Germany or from without? Yes - but as has been pointed out, the commitment would have to be from millions of people, not your hypothetical hundreds. That’s not an organisation, that’s a supper club. > [@](#): > > Can you think of a non-violent campaign that would have had any reasonable effect against the Nazis? Pre-war or during? ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/17 "2011-02-26T15:17:20Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > How many people in this organisation? What is their budget? What are their connections? Are they active in 1932 or 1942? > > It seems pretty obvious that a group of 10 million activists in the public services in 1932 would have stopped the Nazis cold. Just shut down all their finances, make false accusations and get them imprisoned, infiltrate meetings and sabotage everything they try to do and so forth. ISTM that making false accusations is crossing or blurring some lines with pacifists. Wouldn’t that be making the government do your dirty work? Doesn’t the government kinda have the monopoly on legal force/violence? Also, sabotage isn’t really pacifist either. Indirect violence is still violence. People die when you sabotage machinery. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/18 "2011-02-26T16:16:43Z")
It’s hard to see pacifism have much of an impact on a government whose entire political philosophy is based on a belief in constant, endless warfare. They wouldn’t have seen pacifists as brave or honorable, they would have seen them as weak. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/19 "2011-02-26T16:19:07Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > ISTM that making false accusations is crossing or blurring some lines with pacifists. Not this one. I mean, I _don’t_ lie in general, but it’s got absolutely nothing to do with my pacifism. And I have no hesitation in lying to governments if I want to. Governments are not the same thing as real people. Common mistake, that. > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t that be making the government do your dirty work? Doesn’t the government kinda have the monopoly on legal force/violence? If the government’s actors want violence on their conscience, that is up to them. > [@](#): > > Also, sabotage isn’t really pacifist either. Yes, it is. > [@](#): > > Indirect violence is still violence. No, it isn’t. There’s no such thing as “indirect violence” > [@](#): > > People die when you sabotage machinery. Correction - people _might_ die if you sabotage machinery _in a piss-poor fashion_. If you do it right, the machinery is unusable from the get-go. We’re not talking tree-spiking here, or cutting brakelines.Those are hardly effective enough. Much better to blow up substations and trainlines…and no, before you quibble, you warn people that the trainlines are down _before_ a train comes along. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/20 "2011-02-26T16:43:51Z")
Would ex lax or releasing some equivalent of the era laxative in the military water supply cross the pacifist line? Something like that could really hinder the nazi troops, and leave them scared of their own rations, if repeated enough. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680.md?page=2)