# Pacifist opposition to Hitler **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2011, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680 "2011-02-26T08:03:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/21 "2011-02-26T17:12:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Just for comparison purposes, Gandhi’s 1930 “Salt Satyagraha” alone (civilly disobeying the colonial government’s ban on independent domestic salt manufacture) over the course of a year resulted in some 80,000 imprisonments among _millions_ of nonviolent protesters. I read a story some years ago that supposed an alternate history, where Germany had taken control of India in the '30s. Gandhi tried the “nonviolent protest” method with the German powers. This resulted not in imprisonments, but in 10’s of thousands of executions. The end of the story showed Gandhi trying to reason with a German officer, and it finally dawning on him (Gandhi) that these were not the British he was dealing with, and there was no way this tactic would win against an enemy that had no moral qualms about killing thousands of non-violent people and had developed efficient ways of doing just that. Just a story but… perhaps it had a valid point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/22 "2011-02-26T17:19:05Z")
Beat me to it by 5 minutes; it was one of Turtledove’s little efforts, called “[The Last Article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Article).” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/23 "2011-02-26T17:28:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes - but as has been pointed out, the commitment would have to be from millions of people, not your hypothetical hundreds. That’s not an organisation, that’s a supper club. Most movements are launched from an inner core of a few hundred people. The Nazis were, for example. Martin Luther King’s movement had a few hundred people. These people were able to attract the attention of others from outside the movement and inspire their actions. But it would be trivial to plot out the success of a movement on the premise that it’s starting with ten million members. That’s a movement that’s already succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/24 "2011-02-26T19:55:21Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Beat me to it by 5 minutes; it was one of Turtledove’s little efforts, called “[The Last Article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Article).” Good one! I had forgotten the title. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/25 "2011-02-26T20:03:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But it would be trivial to plot out the success of a movement on the premise that it’s starting with ten million members. That’s a movement that’s already succeeded. So you think ten million pacifists would have made a difference? And you acknowledge that such movements could start with just a handful? So why couldn’t that happen in Germany? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/26 "2011-02-26T20:09:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So you think ten million pacifists would have made a difference? > > And you acknowledge that such movements could start with just a handful? > > So why couldn’t that happen in Germany? These are the questions I’m asking. You’ve got a few hundred followers. You’re back in that era (I’ll let you pick the exact time and place). What do you do? Do you feel that the best use of your organization is to recruit more people into the movement? And if so, how do you do that? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/27 "2011-02-26T20:12:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So you think ten million pacifists would have made a difference? > > And you acknowledge that such movements could start with just a handful? > > So why couldn’t that happen in Germany? Because the Nazis would have eliminated them the moment they found out about them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/28 "2011-02-26T20:35:55Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Beat me to it by 5 minutes; it was one of Turtledove’s little efforts, called “[The Last Article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Article).” Another interesting story: [Southern Strategy](http://www.webscription.net/chapters/0743435281/0743435281___2.htm) by Michael Flynn. It has a militant version of Martin Luther King as a character (although he’s named John Calvin King). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/29 "2011-02-26T20:55:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > These are the questions I’m asking. > > You’ve got a few hundred followers. You’re back in that era (I’ll let you pick the exact time and place). Let’s say Berlin, 1925. > [@](#): > > What do you do? Do you feel that the best use of your organization is to recruit more people into the movement? Yes, I think so. > [@](#): > > And if so, how do you do that? Germany at the time was in dire straits, as a result of reparations and world Depression. So some sort of work-based programme, providing for people’s needs in a communal fashion, but without the Communist ideology. Finance this with capitalist money - see below. Make not repeating WWI a mantra - completely repudiate any attempts at rearming. Snazzy uniforms and a culture of health would be a good idea, given the propaganda success it could be. Also promote Pan-germanism and anti-socialism like the Nazis did, but swing it towards a healthy self-esteem rather than outward Teutonism. Make a point of recruiting young women first. The young men will follow. Also vocally, publicly battle the anti-Semitism that was then common. Work to remove it as a currency of popular culture, rather than remain silent. Actively recruit Jews, particularly scientists and engineers, artists, other industry leaders. Leverage German tech advances into making Germany a leader in peaceful applications of auto, air and sea transport, jets, helicopters and rockets. Make full, aware use of the technologies of film, radio and television, both for propaganda attacks and recruitment. Oh, and also as moneymaking streams. Actively target industrialists and their families. Offer them tech advantages. Or else, instigate a concerted program of propaganda, persuasion, or even honey-traps and the like, to get them into the organisation. Or at least, their money. Ditto for anyone in the NDSAP or SA - threaten to out the gays and philanderers, entrap them sexually, financial entrapment, and a steady propaganda program (financed by those industrialists). Basically, starting with a few hundred people (most of whom would be pretty girls and bois), target the wealthy first, then filter pacifism down to the masses via a scientific, industrial propaganda machine. At the same time, break the opposition using the same underhand methods. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/30 "2011-02-26T21:42:59Z")
Yeah, lots of violence can be stopped if you’re allowed to choose an arbitrary number of protesters with unspecified economic and persuasive power. That’s not a very good argument though. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/31 "2011-02-26T23:35:46Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It seems pretty obvious that a group of 10 million activists in the public services in 1932 would have stopped the Nazis cold. Just shut down all their finances, make false accusations and get them imprisoned, infiltrate meetings and sabotage everything they try to do and so forth. At the risk of sounding pedantic I can’t help think of having someone else do the violence on your behalf (i.e. arresting someone) as being pacifistic in nature. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/32 "2011-02-26T23:39:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Another interesting story: [Southern Strategy](http://www.webscription.net/chapters/0743435281/0743435281___2.htm) by Michael Flynn. It has a militant version of Martin Luther King as a character (although he’s named John Calvin King). Heck, the people who weren’t so keen on non-violent resistance are often times ignored in the historiography of the Civil Rights movement. King (M.L.) certainly didn’t start out as a pacifist as he applied for a gun permit in Alabama and was not confident the police would protect him, though, of course, he did eventually go down the non-violent route. The SNCC certainly advocated the use of violence or non-violence depending on the situation. After all, pacifism might work when you have news cameras rolling but it doesn’t do much good when the men in white sheets are kicking down your front door in Mississippi. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/33 "2011-02-26T23:46:39Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > At the risk of sounding pedantic I can’t help think of having someone else do the violence on your behalf (i.e. arresting someone) as being pacifistic in nature. I’m glad someone finally said that. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/34 "2011-02-26T23:59:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Let’s say Berlin, 1925.Yes, I think so.Germany at the time was in dire straits, as a result of reparations and world Depression. So some sort of work-based programme, providing for people’s needs in a communal fashion, but without the Communist ideology. Finance this with capitalist money - see below. > Make not repeating WWI a mantra - completely repudiate any attempts at rearming. > Snazzy uniforms and a culture of health would be a good idea, given the propaganda success it could be. > Also promote Pan-germanism and anti-socialism like the Nazis did, but swing it towards a healthy self-esteem rather than outward Teutonism. > Make a point of recruiting young women first. The young men will follow. > Also vocally, publicly battle the anti-Semitism that was then common. Work to remove it as a currency of popular culture, rather than remain silent. > Actively recruit Jews, particularly scientists and engineers, artists, other industry leaders. > Leverage German tech advances into making Germany a leader in peaceful applications of auto, air and sea transport, jets, helicopters and rockets. > Make full, aware use of the technologies of film, radio and television, both for propaganda attacks and recruitment. Oh, and also as moneymaking streams. > Actively target industrialists and their families. Offer them tech advantages. Or else, instigate a concerted program of propaganda, persuasion, or even honey-traps and the like, to get them into the organisation. Or at least, their money. > Ditto for anyone in the NDSAP or SA - threaten to out the gays and philanderers, entrap them sexually, financial entrapment, and a steady propaganda program (financed by those industrialists). > > Basically, starting with a few hundred people (most of whom would be pretty girls and bois), target the wealthy first, then filter pacifism down to the masses via a scientific, industrial propaganda machine. At the same time, break the opposition using the same underhand methods. I’d support that movement actually except I would insist on rearming but turn it anti-Communist and prepare for a massive war of liberation against the USSR utilizing the Eastern European states as allies. Have them support the anti-Soviets (they existed and almost a million Russians fought for the Nazis despite the latter’s incredible barbarity) within the USSR and restore German confidence and get rid of the Communists in one blow. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/35 "2011-02-27T00:24:53Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I’m glad someone finally said that. :rolleyes: It needs to be repeated. ‘Technical pacifists’ are not, technically, pacifists, any more than someone who claims the bullet actually does all the killing. Or how far can we take this? Can a pacifist who finds a way to sic the Hells Angels on someone do that and keep their pacifist halo untarnished? Bringing it back to the topic, what if the German Gandhi worked as an agent-in-place for the OSS and nonviolently relayed information about troop movements within German borders? He, as a pacifist, certainly didn’t bomb those trains or strafe those men. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/36 "2011-02-27T00:29:58Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I’d support that movement actually except I would insist on rearming but turn it anti-Communist and prepare for a massive war of liberation against the USSR utilizing the Eastern European states as allies. Have them support the anti-Soviets (they existed and almost a million Russians fought for the Nazis despite the latter’s incredible barbarity) within the USSR and restore German confidence and get rid of the Communists in one blow. So you’d try to outdo Hitler and get Germany involved into a different horrifyingly bloody war of conquest? This is why you shouldn’t ever be in charge of a country. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/37 "2011-02-27T00:48:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So you’d try to outdo Hitler and get Germany involved into a different horrifyingly bloody war of conquest? This is why you shouldn’t ever be in charge of a country. Motives matter. Mine would be a rational conflict to liberate the Soviet people and destroy Communism while its virus has yet to spread all over the world. I wouldn’t massacre anyone rather I will support the anti-Communist Russians in the liberation of their nation. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/38 "2011-02-27T01:32:29Z")
Yeah, and then they all get killed at the Bay of свинья… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/39 "2011-02-27T01:37:02Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Motives matter. Mine would be a rational conflict to liberate the Soviet people and destroy Communism while its virus has yet to spread all over the world. I wouldn’t massacre anyone rather I will support the anti-Communist Russians in the liberation of their nation. How very decent of you. And when you poke the bear and Stalin marches his armies into Berlin, will it be you who quaffs poison and gets a bullet in your underground bunker, or will you leave that to someone more ordinary? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680/40 "2011-02-27T01:38:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, and then they all get killed at the Bay of свинья… Look, for all of Castro’s faults he had the genuine support of the majority of the Cuban population at least in the early years and did not resort to mass murder or famine to keep order. Bay of Pigs consisted of just a 1,000 exiles while the anti-Soviet armies in Russia numbered over a million men including crack Cossacks and several generals from White armies or even those who defected from the Soviet army. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifist-opposition-to-hitler/572680.md?page=3)