Pacifist opposition to Hitler

[Frank]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

… the anti-Soviet armies in Russia numbered over a million men including crack Cossacks and several generals from White armies or even those who defected from the Soviet army.

As opposed to an army that lost over six million KIA and over four million POWs, and still won. Good luck with that.

[Little_Nemo]

@MrDibble

Let’s say Berlin, 1925.Yes, I think so.Germany at the time was in dire straits, as a result of reparations and world Depression. So some sort of work-based programme, providing for people’s needs in a communal fashion, but without the Communist ideology. Finance this with capitalist money - see below.
Make not repeating WWI a mantra - completely repudiate any attempts at rearming.
Snazzy uniforms and a culture of health would be a good idea, given the propaganda success it could be.
Also promote Pan-germanism and anti-socialism like the Nazis did, but swing it towards a healthy self-esteem rather than outward Teutonism.
Make a point of recruiting young women first. The young men will follow.
Also vocally, publicly battle the anti-Semitism that was then common. Work to remove it as a currency of popular culture, rather than remain silent.
Actively recruit Jews, particularly scientists and engineers, artists, other industry leaders.
Leverage German tech advances into making Germany a leader in peaceful applications of auto, air and sea transport, jets, helicopters and rockets.
Make full, aware use of the technologies of film, radio and television, both for propaganda attacks and recruitment. Oh, and also as moneymaking streams.
Actively target industrialists and their families. Offer them tech advantages. Or else, instigate a concerted program of propaganda, persuasion, or even honey-traps and the like, to get them into the organisation. Or at least, their money.
Ditto for anyone in the NDSAP or SA - threaten to out the gays and philanderers, entrap them sexually, financial entrapment, and a steady propaganda program (financed by those industrialists).

Basically, starting with a few hundred people (most of whom would be pretty girls and bois), target the wealthy first, then filter pacifism down to the masses via a scientific, industrial propaganda machine. At the same time, break the opposition using the same underhand methods.

A lot of your program seems to reast on the assumption that there were masses of people who were already predisposed to your beleifs and all they neded was a banner to flock to.

I’m not seeing that. The Nazis didn’t come out of nowhere. There was an existing atmosphere of militancy. The Nazis rode the anti-semitism, anti-Communism, and anti-Versailles movements to power but they didn’t invent them. If you came in a tried to start a mass movement that was rejecting these prejudices, you’d be mostly ignored.

Same thing with the idea of recruiting industrialists and media figures (and for that matter young women). Recruiting them with what? What are you offering them that you have and they want?

[Little_Nemo]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Motives matter. Mine would be a rational conflict to liberate the Soviet people and destroy Communism while its virus has yet to spread all over the world. I wouldn’t massacre anyone rather I will support the anti-Communist Russians in the liberation of their nation.

Russia had fought a civil war and the anti-communist Russians had already taken their best shot at defeating the Communists. And since the war’s end, the anti-communists had got weaker and the communists had grown in strenght. So why expect a second civil war to work any better (or even as well as) the first one had?

And just in terms of this thread, you may have misunderstood the concept of pacifism when you say your plans are based on starting a major war.

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

@Frank

As opposed to an army that lost over six million KIA and over four million POWs, and still won. Good luck with that.

Largely because it was a fight to the death with the Nazis who managed to be more brutal than the Stalinists.

@Little_Nemo

Russia had fought a civil war and the anti-communist Russians had already taken their best shot at defeating the Communists. And since the war’s end, the anti-communists had got weaker and the communists had grown in strenght. So why expect a second civil war to work any better (or even as well as) the first one had?

And just in terms of this thread, you may have misunderstood the concept of pacifism when you say your plans are based on starting a major war.

Because since then Stalin had murdered millions of his citizens in the cruelest and most barbaric ways possible. Ukrainian peasents held signs that said “HITLER-LIBERATOR” and many hoped for the decollectivization of the farms which Hitler refused to do.

And I agree I’m going off on a tangent…

[Little_Nemo]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Ukrainian peasents held signs that said “HITLER-LIBERATOR”

As German tanks were driving by, which is an important point. Most of those same peasants had probably been equally fervant supporters of Stalin, Trotsky, Lenin, Kornilov, Kerensky, and Tsar Nicholas.

[MrDibble]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

I’d support that movement actually except I would insist on rearming

Hello? Pacifism?

@Little_Nemo

A lot of your program seems to reast on the assumption that there were masses of people who were already predisposed to your beleifs and all they neded was a banner to flock to.

That’s not quite my assumption. Rather, I’m thinking there were masses of people who were ready to be swayed to some - any - ideology with enough pizazz and savoir.

I’m not seeing that. The Nazis didn’t come out of nowhere. There was an existing atmosphere of militancy.

In the '20s? Not so’s you’d notice, I thought. Care to give examples? I mean, yes, there was the Black Reichswehr and the paramilitaries, but by 1925 things were looking better economically, and so there was a downswing in militarism in general (although a rise on the Right and Left)
I rather saw the era as a brief glimpse of sanity hemmed in by militant madness before and after.

The Nazis rode the anti-semitism, anti-Communism, and anti-Versailles movements to power but they didn’t invent them.

I’m not claiming they did. In fact, for anti-Semitism, I *specifically *said it was popular currency.

If you came in a tried to start a mass movement that was rejecting these prejudices, you’d be mostly ignored.

Good thing I emphasised that I was only interested in rejecting ONE of those, and *using *the others.

Same thing with the idea of recruiting industrialists and media figures (and for that matter young women). Recruiting them with what?

Did you actually read what I wrote? Any means at hand, from lucrative (offering services of movement-recruited scientists and engineers and artists) to highly criminal (blackmail & extortion)

What are you offering them that you have and they want?

The negatives…

[Little_Nemo]

@MrDibble

That’s not quite my assumption. Rather, I’m thinking there were masses of people who were ready to be swayed to some - any - ideology with enough pizazz and savoir.

The problem is you’re competing with the Nazis. Those guys knew pizazz.

In the '20s? Not so’s you’d notice, I thought. Care to give examples? I mean, yes, there was the Black Reichswehr and the paramilitaries, but by 1925 things were looking better economically, and so there was a downswing in militarism in general (although a rise on the Right and Left)

Look at the SA. Millions of people volunteered to join a paramilitary group. And it continued to expand throughout the twenties.

Good thing I emphasised that I was only interested in rejecting ONE of those, and *using *the others.

So you would join in with anti-communism and anti-Versailles messages. How you you present that in a pacifist fashion?

“Who betrayed us in the past? The liberal democracies of the west at Versailles with their lies! Who threatens us in the future? The Bolshevik Communists in Moscow who want to take everything we’ve got! And what are we going to do about it? Well, nothing actually - we’re firmly opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes. We just wanted to express our displeasure.”

It lacks the emotional appeal of “They’re our enemies! So let’s kill them!”

Did you actually read what I wrote? Any means at hand, from lucrative (offering services of movement-recruited scientists and engineers and artists) to highly criminal (blackmail & extortion)

So your plan is to go around threatening powerful and influential people? Yes, I can’t see how that wouldn’t work.

[MrDibble]

@Little_Nemo

The problem is you’re competing with the Nazis. Those guys knew pizazz.

Just get there first, and better. Corner the market on black uniforms (and Hugo Boss) in '25. Recruit Riefensthal early.

Look at the SA. Millions of people volunteered to join a paramilitary group. And it continued to expand throughout the twenties.

Yup - like I said, very popular on the Right.

So you would join in with anti-communism and anti-Versailles messages. How you you present that in a pacifist fashion?

What, one can’t make political points without threats of violence?

“Who betrayed us in the past? The liberal democracies of the west at Versailles with their lies! Who threatens us in the future? The Bolshevik Communists in Moscow who want to take everything we’ve got! And what are we going to do about it? Well, nothing actually - we’re firmly opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes. We just wanted to express our displeasure.”

That’s such a wishy-washy way of expressing things. I’m sure the culture that gave us Metropolis could find a better way of spreading that message.

It lacks the emotional appeal of “They’re our enemies! So let’s kill them!”

Only if you believe people are inherently violent and incapable of being led in a different direction.

Germany at the time was fascinated by the esoteric. What better time to introduce Buddhism, *ahimsa *and the like.

So your plan is to go around threatening powerful and influential people? Yes, I can’t see how that wouldn’t work.

*Organised *programs of blackmail and extortion, not just idle threats. With evidence to back it up.

[donnie_darko]

The only way would be to change the hearts of the German people. Remember the Nazis had no power without the German people giving it to them.

[Susanann]

@Little_Nemo

But it would be trivial to plot out the success of a movement on the premise that it’s starting with ten million members. That’s a movement that’s already succeeded.

The jews in Germany and Europe were for the most part pacifist and unarmed, and all they accomplished was making it easier for the armed Nazis to kill millions of them.

Modern jews in Israel today learned that lesson well, and you will not find very many jews in Israel today who are pacifist…or unarmed.

Aggressors, criminals, murderers, robbers, rapists, dictators, monsters, etc are not deterred by unarmed pacifists.

[Johanna]

In the ex-Communist anthology The God that Failed, something Arthur Koestler said about politics in Central Europe in the 1920s and 30s stood out… Koestler said that there were only two possible ways that things could go: either fascism or communism. That just bothered me. Was it true, or was it one person’s retrospective attempt to make an excuse for a decision in his past that he regretted, to minimize his own responsibility for it? The question of this thread also hinges around whatever Koestler was talking about.

[Scumpup]

Organized campaigns of blackmail sound fun. Where are you going to get the evidence with which to blackmail these powerful people? Anything that might be useful for the purpose is also something they will be at pains to conceal.

[humanafterall]

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Would ex lax or releasing some equivalent of the era laxative in the military water supply cross the pacifist line?

Something like that could really hinder the nazi troops, and leave them scared of their own rations, if repeated enough.

:p:D yeah! I think that would have worked, the problem is getting into the food supply and applying it without letting them know what happened.

[Little_Nemo]

Yes, some big symbolic non-violent attack against the German government. I know, let’s set fire to the Reichstag building in the middle of the night. That’ll show those Nazis we’re not to be trifled with. And the best part is there’s nothing they can do in response.