# Pacifists and world politics = Saddam Husseins **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 26, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669 "2003-10-26T15:55:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![2Thick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/a88e57/32.png) [@2Thick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Thick)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/61 "2003-11-09T17:47:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*Lest we forget that Iran declared war on the United States. \*\* Cite? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/62 "2003-11-09T18:29:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*C’mon, lefties! Join me. Condemn Communist China, Vietnam, North Korea! It’s liberating. \*\* I’ll step up to the plate. If you consider me a leftie (which I suspect you would, though I consider myself merely a liberal). Sure. I condemn the disgusting human right violations of the governments of all three of the countries mentioned. That includes the right to self-determination, dissident status, etc. I condemn disgusting human rights violations wherever they occur. Now, do I get some sort of prize? ---
**Author:** ![CnoteChris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/278dde/32.png) [@CnoteChris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CnoteChris)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/63 "2003-11-09T18:42:28Z")
A one way ticket out of the country? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/64 "2003-11-10T02:38:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*C’mon, lefties! Join me. Condemn Communist China, Vietnam, North Korea! It’s liberating. \*\* I’ve condemned them repeatedly. I assume you’d identify me as a ‘leftie,’ though honestly I’m a bit left of center, and surprisingly, American. I’d like to see some actual evidence that anyone here who wasn’t completely loopy defended any of those regimes. This thread is an extended straw man where you’ve created “whatevers” who do such things without identifying them. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/65 "2003-11-10T06:05:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*I’ve got Black Hawk Down and “Black Hawk down” on the brain. \*\* You’ve got Down’s, all right. Why did you bump this ignorant shit? ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/66 "2003-11-10T06:14:36Z")
Beagle, like you, I was also happy that the US freed Cambodia from Pol Pot. Then I woke up and realized it was the hated Vietnamese who did. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/67 "2003-11-10T06:37:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*Why did you bump this ignorant shit? \*\* My fault, I’m afraid. I made reference to this thread in the [Iraq and Comparisons to Vietnam](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=221858&pagenumber=2) thread after **Milum** decided to hijack the thread with brainless French bashing and **Beagle** chimed in. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/68 "2003-11-10T06:43:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*Why did you bump this ignorant shit? \*\* My fault, I’m afraid. I made reference to this thread in the [Iraq and Comparisons to Vietnam](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=221858&pagenumber=2) thread after **Milum** decided to hijack the thread with brainless French bashing and **Beagle** chimed in. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/69 "2003-11-10T14:45:58Z")
Actually it was documented French bashing. Stick that “cite” up your ass and do some research yourself. I’m sick of being everyone’s basic history and civics teacher. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/70 "2003-11-10T14:59:37Z")
I’m sure we will all be quite bereft without your valued input, **Beagle**. But if this is the best decision for _you_, I think we must all learn to accept it. It will be hard, at first, or course, but given time the wounds will heal, and we will find the strength to go on. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/71 "2003-11-11T02:53:34Z")
Smart ass remarks aside, I have already been over that issue in some detail. I would suggest that people avail themselves of any news outlet that covered the recent demonstrations in Iran where the chant remains “Death to Israel. Death to America.” Unlike demonstrations for democracy, these are not put down by the government. Just because war is cloaked in religious terms does not mean war has not been declared. Don’t expect the enemy to fight by your rules. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/72 "2003-11-11T03:07:36Z")
Let me see if I got this right, friend **Beagle**. Iranians stage anti-American demonstrations, the government does not intervene in this dastardly display of dis, _which means_ that the government of Iran essentially supports the expressed hostility _and that_ is approximately equal to a declaration of war. Is that about it? ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/73 "2003-11-11T03:25:20Z")
I’m just glad someone finally had the guts to stand up to those damn pacifists. **Beagle** , you are a steely-eyed, Kissingeresque master of _realpolitik_, while lefties are flower-tossing pansies. Here’s to you, **Beagle**. (_drinks heartily from ‘Hawkshot’ mug, chokes to death on own sarcasm_) ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/74 "2003-11-11T03:36:06Z")
You’re right. It’s like shooting at fish in your bathtub with a 12 gauge – a la Training Day, or something. :o Sorry, Quakers! I didn’t mean you folks. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/75 "2003-11-11T03:57:00Z")
**Beagle** , rest assured I’m not using you as a source of learning for civics or history or anything else. On the evidence, I doubt I ever will. (Actually, until I read this sorry excuse for a thread, I barely knew you existed. Now I regret the knowledge.) How do you get your ego through ordinary doorways? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/76 "2003-11-11T03:59:10Z")
It collapses. Thanks for your input. We’ll keep it on file for six months. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/77 "2003-11-11T04:41:07Z")
As for Vietnam, they invaded Cambodia after the pits were full. Soon after that the “boat people” began flooding out of Vietnam. What a mess. Vietnam saved Cambodia? Vietnam hasn’t saved itself yet. Political critics of the CPV are all in jail or under constant surveillance. Prison conditions are some of the worst in the world. There is unrest, but the government won’t allow the media to cover it. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/78 "2003-11-11T04:55:57Z")
According to my browser, luce, this is the last post I made on page 1, among others, dealing with this issue. > [@](#): > > Yes. As you already noted, by the end it was a de facto government action supported by Khomeni fully. I choose function and actions of the government over formalism in this case. > > The most important effect is the effect on public opinion. That made Iran and Khomeni public enemy number one. What is reality if it isn’t perception and the media? Politics. It is significant in a nation without free speech to note what is allowed to be said. It’s an inescapable conclusion if you use logic instead of political preconceptions. “Death to America” is the official policy. They support the destruction of America through their interpretation of martyrdom, etc. It’s not that complex. They don’t _declare_ war the same way we do. It took decades of “Death to America” and learning about Islamic radicals, but it’s not really earthshattering that the Iranians have been at war with us for years. We launched a helicopter mission into Iran which got dozens of people killed. Nobody questioned it because everyone knew we were already at war. Sovereign territory of the US is that. Usama doesn’t blow up an embassy because it has no significance. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/79 "2003-11-11T06:10:14Z")
From **Beagle** in the Vietnam thread > [@](#): > > France didn’t ignore Saddam’s bad habits, it supplied them. US intelligence information + French and Soviet hardware = dead Iranians. That’s a point people always forget when they jump to attack the US: France being Iraq’s second biggest arms supplier during the first 10 years of Saddam’s reign. They sold him advanced missiles and advanced attack planes. > > Another LAT article that picks up the story with Reagan in power. Saddam already was there and the Iran - Iraq war was underway. Somehow, it’s all his fault. > > The US was trying to play Iraq and Iran off against one another so that neither nation would win. France went one step beyond and openly supplied Iraq with substantial advanced weaponry. The French wanted the Iraqis to win. Not a big deal really: arms sales, military assistance. But, since every US citizen has to go over modern history to engage in debate, I think it is only fair to bring up our biggest detractors on the world stage when their actions were more substantial. Continuing this in the other thread is an enormous hijack. I’d put it to you that this isn’t something that people always forget, it’s something you **think** people always forget. You also seem to assume that anyone pointing any of these things out is jumping to attack the US. I for one am fully aware of where Iraq got its weapons during the Iran-Iraq war. I’d also put it to you that the US had no problems with France supplying arms to Iraq during the 80s. Calling it one step beyond making it a post facto crime is as silly as saying the US loved Saddam in the 80s. Regarding > [@](#): > > Stick that “cite” up your ass and do some research yourself. I’m sick of being everyone’s basic history and civics teacher. if this > [@](#): > > The whole thread was about information, and the twisting thereof. I could do a reading if requested and well compensated. What most people knew about Saddam Hussein when he took power was nothing. There was no internet news. Home computers were just starting to get a foothold. is your idea of how information flowed before the advent of computers and the internet, I’d suggest you discover such modern innovations as the print newspaper and the telegraph. Believe it or not, people, particularly those in power, could be quite well informed. Informed people might not draw the exact same conclusions as you. Not everyone who subscribes to the extremist rhetoric that you do is a “whatever” – if such people actually exist. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669/80 "2003-11-11T13:47:10Z")
I think I did a pretty good job of drawing out the opinions that I predicted were out there. It’s a debate tactic. I refuse to concede any ground just because it makes my opponents uncomfortable. I take your arguments and deconstruct them. I reverse them. I leave out some facts to let people draw the political conclusions based on no facts that they always do. Then, you point out the automatic nature of the argmentation. It’s hypocrisy season. This all goes back to the Europeans and their unwillingness to self-critique, but over-willingness to blame all the world’s problems on the right in the United States. I’ve been citing Jean-Francois Revel all over the place. Incorporate everything he’s ever written by reference, here. Throw in the craven despicible French and German relationship with Saddam, that they apparently won’t let go of, and that’s it in a nutshell. I’ve given up on them. We’ll see you guys on the back end of Shari’a Law. Enjoy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-and-world-politics-saddam-husseins/209669.md?page=5)