# Pacifist's boyfriend kills someone in self-defense. Is breaking up a reasonable response? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 3, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913 "2010-10-03T14:55:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/41 "2010-10-04T05:12:56Z")
Sounds like the two are incompatible at a fundamental level. Robert’s way of thinking just doesn’t compute in my world. Avery ain’t gonna change what he is. Not sure he could if he wanted to. Robert can’t handle that…well…there’s the door. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/42 "2010-10-04T05:24:55Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > > > I put down other, because I don’t think anyone needs a reason to break up with anyone else. If Robert feels he can’t be with Avery anymore then breaking up would be best for both of them. > > Clearly we all have the right to break up with our lovers for whatever reason we choose. But it doesn’t follow that all motives for breaking up are reasonable. > > Consider a different couple, Rhonda and Alex. They’re dating exclusively and on the road to marriage, but have never had sex, because Alex feels very strongly that sex is only allowable in marriage; he himself is a virgin and only willing to marry one. He learns that Rhonda, long before they met, was raped; this was her only sexual experience. Alex decides for that reason to break up with her as she is no longer pure in his eyes. Of course he is _allowed_ to do this; he can break things off for any reason. But he’s still an asshole (and Rhonda is still better off without him). If the point is that Robert is an asshole for having pacifist beliefs, that’s another thread. I agree with you 100% that absolute pacifism is an immoral belief. But people hold all sorts of beliefs you and i consider immoral. If someone holds a belief that’s important to them, they are under no obligation to date someone who holds incompatible beleiefs. In this example, Alex is perfectly justified in breaking up with Rhonda. In fact I’ll Godwinize this thread. Let’s say Joe and June are dating. Let’s say they’re both WASPs. Let’s say June believes in the absolute supremacy of the “Nordic” people. Then she hears Joe saying “Damn, Jerry Seinfeld and Chris Rock are smart funny people.” She is completely justified in dumping him on the spot. The fact that her beliefs are abhorrent to any sane person is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/43 "2010-10-04T06:02:37Z")
I don’t understand trying to divorce the two. If your beliefs are abhorrent, then acting upon them is immoral. What, do you think a sociopath gets bonus points for murdering someone if it’s not against their conscience? That said, I don’t believe absolute pacifism is itself immoral. But I do reject the idea that one _has_ to break up with someone. Robert is choosing to do so. If he didn’t really want to, he would create some sort of rationalization. That’s what humans do. He is choosing to value his pacifism more than his lover, and that is his option. But I wouldn’t blame Avery for being upset. And I would be too if Robert frames it as not being his choice. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/44 "2010-10-04T06:55:14Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > This amuses the oafs, and one spits on Avery, which he ignores. But then the other punches Robert. Avery responds to this with a couple of quick blows that take him down. > > OH!..You had me until here. > > Here is where Avery _isn’t_ reacting in self-defense. He’s taking the offense, and that, were I a \*total \*pacifist, would be the deal breaker, right there. Self defense would be if he blocked a punch coming his way, or even punched to incapacitate someone swinging at him. Hitting someone because they hit someone else isn’t _self_-defense, by definition. Actually, under Spanish law yes it is self-defense, by definition. The law simply doesn’t have a term for “third-party defense”. Would I break up with Avery for that? No. Should Robert stay in a relationship which doesn’t work for him any more? Neither. Whether I would agree with his reasons or not is as irrelevant as my taste in bridal clothes is for every bride in human history. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/45 "2010-10-04T15:53:14Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Sounds like the two are incompatible at a fundamental level. Robert’s way of thinking just doesn’t compute in my world. Avery ain’t gonna change what he is. Not sure he \*\*could \*\*if he wanted to. Robert can’t handle that…well…there’s the door. You and I both know you mean _should_ here. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/46 "2010-10-04T16:01:20Z")
I don’t know that he meant _should_, **Skald**. A fundamental viewpoint like ‘violence in self-defense is permissable’ or ‘violence in self-defense is not permissable’ is not an easy thing to change. It’s kind of like religion; I can’t just decide to suddenly believe in a god, just because someone else wants me to. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/47 "2010-10-04T16:04:03Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > I don’t know that he meant _should_, **Skald**. A fundamental viewpoint like ‘violence in self-defense is permissable’ or ‘violence in self-defense is not permissable’ is not an easy thing to change. It’s kind of like religion; I can’t just decide to suddenly believe in a god, just because someone else wants me to. I was mostly joking with **Oak** , Oy!. He and I have very similar reactions to a lot of things. If I had written that sentence, **I** would have meant _should_ (though I’d probably have phrased it the same way). ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/48 "2010-10-04T16:24:34Z")
Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/49 "2010-10-04T16:35:49Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Sorry. Never apologize, dear, it’s a sign of weakness. The proper response was, “I don’t care what you CLAIM to have MEANT, asshole. Only what you ACTUALLY SAID COUNTS.” It comes off better if you can say it with smoke curling around your lips, but the fricking surgeon general has made that all but impossible. Anyway I can’t accept your apology as I was not offended. I’ve sent you some imaginary cookies instead. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/50 "2010-10-04T16:44:38Z")
I feel, always apologize. Better to have others think you are weak, and surprise them. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/51 "2010-10-04T16:49:43Z")
Avery can do much better. Dump Robert for the jerk he is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/52 "2010-10-04T16:54:20Z")
They are not a good couple. One of them reacted appropriately at every stage to an increasingly violent confrontation, responding to force with appropriate force, and one of them is Robert. Robert’s an idiot, and Avery is much better off without him. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/53 "2010-10-04T16:57:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > They are not a good couple. One of them reacted appropriately **at every stage** to an increasingly violent confrontation, responding to force with appropriate force, and one of them is Robert. > > Robert’s an idiot, and Avery is much better off without him. I’m not completely sure that’s true. Though I still think the confrontation at the car would probably have happened no matter what Avery did, he did escalate just-a-tiny-bit by telling the yokels to shut up. He’s still at least 99% blameless, though. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/54 "2010-10-04T17:02:39Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > They are not a good couple. One of them reacted appropriately **at every stage** to an increasingly violent confrontation, responding to force with appropriate force, and one of them is Robert. > > > > Robert’s an idiot, and Avery is much better off without him. > > I’m not completely sure that’s true. Though I still think the confrontation at the car would probably have happened no matter what Avery did, he did escalate just-a-tiny-bit by telling the yokels to shut up. He’s still at least 99% blameless, though. He escalated it more than a tiny bit. That they were attacked is still not his fault, but he didn’t respond in the best way, either. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/55 "2010-10-04T20:35:09Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > I’m not completely sure that’s true. Though I still think the confrontation at the car would probably have happened no matter what Avery did, he did escalate just-a-tiny-bit by telling the yokels to shut up. He’s still at least 99% blameless, though. > > He escalated it more than a tiny bit. That they were attacked is still not his fault, but he didn’t respond in the best way, either. Do you think that the drunk oafs would have stopped if Avery had ignored them entirely, or escalated themselves out of a desire to get a rise out of someone? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/56 "2010-10-04T20:43:35Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > He escalated it more than a tiny bit. That they were attacked is still not his fault, but he didn’t respond in the best way, either. > > Do you think that the drunk oafs would have stopped if Avery had ignored them entirely, or escalated themselves out of a desire to get a rise out of someone? I think that most of the time “I had no choice but to fight them!” is untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/57 "2010-10-04T20:47:56Z")
You left out \_\_\_\_\_, and I most certainly will not call you Mahatma, not the same title Gandhi had. Sorry. How is there a right or wrong in this scenario at all? Everyone did or is doing what they thought they had to. If Avery cannot live with this relationship, how is it right or wrong to break up? We all in the course of our lives must decide what is acceptable to us. And the brutal killing of another person right in front of one’s eyes might seriously bother anyone who wasn’t a pacifist, too. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/58 "2010-10-04T21:08:30Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > You left out \_\_\_\_\_, and I most certainly will not call you Mahatma, not the same title Gandhi had. Sorry. If I’d given that particular wisecrack more thought, I wouldn’t have used it. It’s akin to mocking Christ or Muhammad. I apologize; I should have been more considerate. > [@](#): > > How is there a right or wrong in this scenario at all? Everyone did or is doing what they thought they had to. If Avery cannot live with this relationship, how is it right or wrong to break up? We all in the course of our lives must decide what is acceptable to us. And the brutal killing of another person right in front of one’s eyes might seriously bother anyone who wasn’t a pacifist, too. (I assume you meant to type “if Robert cannot live…” since he is the pacifist contemplating a breakup and will proceed from that assumption.) The question is really “Does Robert’s decision make you think less of him?” not “Does Robert have the right to make the decision he is contemplating?” In a thread I am too lazy to search for, I have argued that the right to decide whom one will not be romantically involved with is so basic that it is impossible for it to be wrong, even if the motives are odious. But just as I’d think less of a black Christian who categorically refused to date Jews because Jews murdered Christ (a not uncommon sentiment in Pentecostal churches), I think that Robert’s choice betrays a disconnect with reality. But then, as I’ve written elsewhere, I judge [absolute pacifism to be chimerical and egoistic moral system.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10898646&postcount=1) Moreover, if it’s the sort of pacifism that allows for calling 911 when you’re in danger of violence – i.e., recruiting others to do violence on your behalf – such pacifism is immoral as well. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/59 "2010-10-04T21:24:17Z")
The thing is though even if you believe in self defense as a last ditch option, a person might find some of Avery’s earlier responses problematic because they removed choices from Robert in how to respond. Not everyone handles drunks with ‘shut up’ as an initial response. In my view the pacifism aspect is more a red herring than anything. Otara ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913/60 "2010-10-04T21:25:09Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > You left out \_\_\_\_\_, and I most certainly will not call you Mahatma, not the same title Gandhi had. Sorry. > > How is there a right or wrong in this scenario at all? Everyone did or is doing what they thought they had to. If Avery cannot live with this relationship, how is it right or wrong to break up? We all in the course of our lives must decide what is acceptable to us. And the brutal killing of another person right in front of one’s eyes might seriously bother anyone who wasn’t a pacifist, too. Yeah, I’m not a pacifist, but I wouldn’t be able to just shrug off the incident. It would be very traumatic, more so if I felt that Avery had choices and that someone died “because” of me. Yes, he died because he was a violent asshole, but I would feel like it was more personal than that. I might need therapy. Robert might need more than that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pacifists-boyfriend-kills-someone-in-self-defense-is-breaking-up-a-reasonable-response/555913.md?page=4)