# Paedophile found dead in home - vigilantes suspected **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160 "2003-12-01T02:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Herge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Herge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Herge)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/1 "2003-12-01T02:45:40Z")
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/3251094.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/3251094.stm) It is suspected that the man may have been a victim of vigilantes. It is also reported that the man had been subject to harrassment in the past. Why does paedophilia incite such hatred? Sexual crimes against children are terrible, of course. In my opinion, they incite so much rage in people for three reasons. First, because children are defenseless and are easy targets. Second, because the rest of children’s lives can be badly effected. Third, especially for people with kids of their own, sexual crimes against children make them think “what if it was my kid?”. My initial reaction on readin this story was “Well, I don’t feel much sympathy for him”. But it also made me question why. If the guy had robbed an elderly woman, and indecently exposed himself to another elderly woman, I don’t think there would be mobs out to seek vigilante justice on him. Paedophiles who prey on children are presented as monsters in the media. They are presented as being worse than serial killers. I think the media are partly to blame for these kind of attacks. I think paedophilia is a disease, like alcoholism, which should be treated. Although I felt little sympathy for this paedophile who was murdered, I also feel that mod justice is not the answer. There are many more men (and some women) like this man, and I think we should be investing more time into the treatment of their disease. This man was considered “medium risk”, whatever that means. He was jailed for a year for his crimes. In the cold light of day, shouldn’t people accept that this man has served his punishment for his crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Herge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Herge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Herge)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/2 "2003-12-01T02:47:47Z")
I should apologise for the typos, I didn’t preview the final post properly. Sorry! ---
**Author:** ![Tedster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@Tedster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tedster)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/3 "2003-12-01T02:51:38Z")
_Paedophiles who prey on children are presented as monsters in the media._ Well… thank goodness for small favors. The problem with kiddie fuckers is the recidivism rate is very high. No one can condone vigilanteism in a nation of laws however comma if the justice can’t or won’t deal with crime effectively it is sure to rear its ugly head. Note I am not saying this is a good thing, but an inevitability. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/4 "2003-12-01T02:58:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Herge \* > \*\* > I think paedophilia is a disease, like alcoholism, which should be treated. \*\* Agreed… treated with termination. ---
**Author:** ![Herge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Herge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Herge)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/5 "2003-12-01T03:10:50Z")
FriarTed, isn’t that an over reaction? In this case the man was convicted of making indecent images of a girl under the age of 14, and gross indecency. Is “termination” the answer? ---
**Author:** ![gubernator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@gubernator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gubernator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/6 "2003-12-01T03:12:27Z")
Herge, I think the hatred toward Pedophilia, not that I endorse it, is mainly a cultural thing in which the media probably has help grow. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/7 "2003-12-01T03:30:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriarTed \* > Agreed… treated with termination. It’s always nice to have such level-headed people around. :rolleyes: Seriously though, that’s a pretty extreme view you’ve got there, FriarTed. I think that the 12 months he served were an appropriate punishment, given that he just took pictures of an underage girl. But even if you don’t think it is, vigilantism is still wrong (unless, of course, you are willing to allow vigilantism in general, which I don’t think you are). _I_ wouldn’t feel this was warranted even if he had gotten off on a technicality. But he didn’t. He served his sentence and should not have been bothered afterwards by people who don’t like his past. His murder is a crime and those responsible will hopefully be caught and put on trial. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/8 "2003-12-01T03:35:06Z")
I don’t think pedophilia is a disease. It’s a sexual proclivity. Just like polyamory, homosexuality, heterosexuality, getting your girlfriend to dress up like Bugs Bunny and spank you with a leather riding crop. And for the most part, there’s nothing wrong with sexual proclivities. In fact, I’d say there’s nothing wrong with pedophilia per se. It’s just the actually going through with it that’s the problem, because the consenting adults line has been crossed. Unfortunately, like most sexual proclivities, it’s deeply rooted in the human psyche. If you can’t get your girlfriend to dress up like Bugs Bunny, then no matter how much you love and cherish her chances are you’ll find someone who will. And pedophiles will, in all likelihood, sexually abuse children. There’s not a good solution, other than institutionalization, which usually only occurs after the fact. Life’s a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/9 "2003-12-01T03:49:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tedster \* > \*\*Well… thank goodness for small favors. The problem with kiddie fuckers is the recidivism rate is very high. \*\* **Tedster** , do you have a cite for this? [Here’s my cite, which seems contrary to your statement.](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/rsorp94.pdf) Sex offenders in general have a much lower recidivism rate then non sex offenders, and child molesters have a lower recidivism rate then even other sex offenders. I assume when you said “very high” you ment in relation to other recidivism rates rather then raw numbers–if you go with raw numbers, a released child molester is probably _not_ going to be convicted of child molestation again. Yes, someone convicted of child molestation is more likely to be re-convicted for that crime then someone who hasn’t, but doesn’t mean that that rate is “very high,” either in absolute numbers or relative to other recidivism rates. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/10 "2003-12-01T03:54:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by laigle \* > I don’t think pedophilia is a disease. It’s a sexual proclivity. Just like polyamory, homosexuality, heterosexuality, getting your girlfriend to dress up like Bugs Bunny and spank you with a leather riding crop. And for the most part, there’s nothing wrong with sexual proclivities. In fact, I’d say there’s nothing wrong with pedophilia per se. It’s just the actually going through with it that’s the problem, because the consenting adults line has been crossed. > > Unfortunately, like most sexual proclivities, it’s deeply rooted in the human psyche. If you can’t get your girlfriend to dress up like Bugs Bunny, then no matter how much you love and cherish her chances are you’ll find someone who will. And pedophiles will, in all likelihood, sexually abuse children. There’s not a good solution, other than institutionalization, which usually only occurs after the fact. Life’s a bitch. That might be true, laigle, but pedophiles are often found to have been sexually abused as children. This is indicative of childhood experiences (and their resultant anxiety) influencing someone’s personality later on in life. It could be genetic, but I have not seen any evidence of that. Of course, anyone who’s read Steven Pinker’s _The Blank Slate_ would point out the obvious–that since many of the personality traits attributed to parents are expressed by their children, the transfer could (to a greater extent than most believe) be genetic, and not just through accrued experiences. Regardless of the psychological stance on this condition, the law would remain the same. Pedophilia is a crime because of the issue of consent. And pre-pubescent children are always less than 18 years of age (rare diseases excepted, of course)\*. \*This does bring up an interesting point. What if someone was dating a person with one of those disorders which prevent the person from aging (physically)? This would obviously be legal, but how would people react to them on the street? ---
**Author:** ![Gamaliel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b487fb/32.png) [@Gamaliel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gamaliel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/11 "2003-12-01T04:02:31Z")
Well, I’m not going to shed any tears over dead pedophiles, but really, this sort of mad vigilantism should trouble anybody, even if you buy into the crazy idea that the justice system somehow isn’t dealing with them. The problem with this sort of street justice is that it is so often horribly incompetent, harrasing people who live in addresses that used to belong to pedophiles, or people with the same common name as a pedophile, or even in one hysterical instance (which i can’t find a cite for, alas) a doctor whose specialty was spelled a little too close to pedophile for the mob’s taste. ---
**Author:** ![Intent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5e9695/32.png) [@Intent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intent)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/12 "2003-12-01T04:11:28Z")
While disturbing, I can not find anything with a grown man who fantasizes about ten year olds. Let my clarify, I can not find a way that those fantasies are causing injury to anyone else. However, known pedophiles cross the line between thier fantasies and real life. And children are generally smaller than adults, have fewer skills with to fight the adult off with, and are generally led to believe that adults know what’s right. So when they are victimized by an adult, they might not be able to deal with it, won’t know who to talk to, or just how to deal. To me, that is one of the major things that makes pedophilia horrible, is that kids have fewer resources in which to deal with it. And it’s terribly selfish. Chances are, a grown man can find some grown women, somewhere, who will have sex with him. Consenually. However, no child would want to have sex with an adult. So no matter what the case, it’s forced, it’s probably physically injuring, and emotionally devastating (on that note, I think rape between two adults is just as bad, but different topic, different time). Also, based on the pyschological reports I’ve read, adults who prey on children, and who step over that line, will continue to do that. Children deserve a straight chance in this world, and pedophiles rob them of that for thier own selfish little needs. That guy got what he deserved. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/13 "2003-12-01T04:20:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Intent \* > While disturbing, I can not find anything with a grown man who fantasizes about ten year olds. Let my clarify, I can not find a way that those fantasies are causing injury to anyone else. Right. > [@](#): > > However, known pedophiles cross the line between thier fantasies and real life. And children are generally smaller than adults, have fewer skills with to fight the adult off with, and are generally led to believe that adults know what’s right. So when they are victimized by an adult, they might not be able to deal with it, won’t know who to talk to, or just how to deal. What if a person admits that he is a pedophile, but does not touch children sexually and does not view pedophilic pornography? > [@](#): > > Also, based on the pyschological reports I’ve read, adults who prey on children, and who step over that line, will continue to do that. Children deserve a straight chance in this world, and pedophiles rob them of that for thier own selfish little needs. That guy got what he deserved. Metacom’s cite contradicts your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Intent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5e9695/32.png) [@Intent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intent)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/14 "2003-12-01T04:53:08Z")
In my own personal line of morals, which is basically, do what you please as long as you do not harm others, if a person admits they are a pedophile, but they do not act on it, doesn’t touch children, doesn’t view the porn, that’s alright, because they aren’t harming others. The have the morals, the conscience, the judgement, whatever you want to call it, to prevent them from crossing that line. Example, the guy across the street has a car I really like. But it’s not mine, so I don’t touch it. I can fantasize about having it or driving it all I want, because as long as I don’t act on that fantasy, I’m not hurting anyone. I was not able to access Metacom’s cite. I read several books by former FBI agents John Douglas and Robert Ressler, and there experieniences said that you can’t treat people who choose to cross the line to hurting someone, especially people who prey on children. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/15 "2003-12-01T05:01:56Z")
Here’s another link: [http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/rsorp94pr.htm](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/rsorp94pr.htm) > [@](#): > > In my own personal line of morals, which is basically, do what you please as long as you do not harm others, if a person admits they are a pedophile, but they do not act on it, doesn’t touch children, doesn’t view the porn, that’s alright, because they aren’t harming others. The have the morals, the conscience, the judgement, whatever you want to call it, to prevent them from crossing that line. That makes sense. But continuing my hypothetical situation: would the (almost) inevitable attacks on said person by members of the community in which he resides be justified? And, to return to this specific case: having served his sentence, is it justifiable for the guy’s neighbor’s to harass him, let alone murder him? ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/16 "2003-12-01T05:03:40Z")
\ ***neighbors** ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/17 "2003-12-01T05:42:10Z")
What else can we expect from publically declaring his presence as “medium risk”? Honestly, who was talking themselves into thinking this wouldn’t be the end result? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/18 "2003-12-01T05:48:13Z")
Is using the term vigilantism for this correct? A vigilante is defined as _One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one’s own hands._ according to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com). Arnold Hartley had already served his sentence for his crime so the people who killed him were not carrying out justice or enforcing the law, they were simply murderers. I’m sure that no matter what happens, they will never doubt the correctness of their actions. As for the recidivism rate, here is text from that link Compared to the 9,691 sex offenders and to the 262,420 non-sex offenders, released child molesters were more likely to be rearrested for child molest-ing. Within the first 3 years following release from prison in 1994, 3.3% (141 of 4,295) of released child molesters were rearrested for another sex crime The lower rates makes sense to me based on the conditions they would face in prison. My father worked as a prison guard and told me all the stories about prisoners attacking and sometimes killing child molesters are true. Usually they have to be taken out of general population to protect their lives. Sounds like a very large deterrent to getting arrested for the crime a second time. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/19 "2003-12-01T06:23:30Z")
**Intent** wrote: > [@](#): > > However, no child would want to have sex with an adult. Never? Cite? Seriously, it depends on what you mean by “sex”. Certainly that’s almost always the case for intercourse, but equally certainly thats not always the case for other forms of contact which we adults would refer to as “sex”. (The children might not see it as “sex”, and as such, it may not be as harmful to them as it would if they realized the stigma attached to it.) Of course, it should still be illegal, since it is difficult to tell between a naturally curious child (for which I would, _ideally_, sentence the adult accomplice to counseling and legal scrutiny rather than jail,) and a predatory adult pretending that the child was curious. So, it’s jail for everyone, then. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160/20 "2003-12-01T06:53:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > What else can we expect from publically declaring his presence as “medium risk”? Honestly, who was talking themselves into thinking this wouldn’t be the end result? Are you sure that the sex offenders’ registry is made public in England? And, if it is, that still doesn’t justify the mob’s actions. > [@](#): > > Is using the term vigilantism for this correct? A vigilante is defined as One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one’s own hands. according to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com). Arnold Hartley had already served his sentence for his crime so the people who killed him were not carrying out justice or enforcing the law, they were simply murderers. I’m sure that no matter what happens, they will never doubt the correctness of their actions. No, I think that they were murderers who felt that they were engaging in vigilante justice. The [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) definition isn’t wrong, but, having a general sense of the situation, I would call it vigilantism. Consider the Webster’s definition: “a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law appear inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice.” Some vigilantism occurs after the victim has been released by the authorities. The key word here is _ **inadequate** _. When someone feels that another’s punishment was _inadequate_, and takes action that he thinks rectifies the situation, that is vigilantism. > [@](#): > > The lower rates makes sense to me based on the conditions they would face in prison. My father worked as a prison guard and told me all the stories about prisoners attacking and sometimes killing child molesters are true. Usually they have to be taken out of general population to protect their lives. Sounds like a very large deterrent to getting arrested for the crime a second time. OK, but, following that reasoning, they would not commit the initial crime because they know that they could be murdered in prison. The point, however, is that sex offenders, for whatever reason, have a lower recidivism rate than criminals convicted of non-sexual crimes. So even a de post facto justification (they might say that they were justified because he was going to repeat his crime), however weak and tenuous it would be, is non-existant. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paedophile-found-dead-in-home-vigilantes-suspected/216160.md?page=2)