# Pagans, Athiests, and Mormons, beware! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618 "2005-05-26T16:28:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/41 "2005-05-26T17:54:15Z")
Ho-lee crap. That’s all I can say. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/42 "2005-05-26T17:56:06Z")
I expect (or hope) that this judge’s decision gets overturned, on the grounds that if violates religious freedom. If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that \*\*no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in \*\* politics, nationalism, **religion** , or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. –Robert H. Jackson “Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.” – Thomas Paine I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: “O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.” And God granted it. -Voltaire I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others. -Thomas Jefferson ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/43 "2005-05-26T18:16:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree the term is used wihtout rigor among many commentators. > > However, there is a reasonably rigorous definition of ‘activism’ - more rigorous, anyway, than “a decision I don’t like.” Ok-so now you’ve lost me. Am I the one who is saying “I don’t like this decision” or is the RR? It can’t be the RR, since they consider witches to be Satanists (they are wrong, but that’s another thread). In short, who here is defining judicial activism as “a decision I don’t like”? This judge is clearly not heeding the law. He is using his position to further his agenda–if that ain’t activism, I don’t know what is. JA entails more than that, certainly, but this is a valiant attempt at it. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/44 "2005-05-26T18:16:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree the term is used wihtout rigor among many commentators. > > However, there is a reasonably rigorous definition of ‘activism’ - more rigorous, anyway, than “a decision I don’t like.” Personally, I think the term “judicial activism” is used so capriciously as to be without meaning (we’ll have to agree to disagree on that, **Bricker** ) but this case in no way constitutes judicial activism. The term is theoretically a description of legislative action on the part of the judiciary - what constitutes legislation is debatable, but I would agree with **Bricker** that it would be hard to call this decision a legislative one. I’d lean more towards “a despicable attempt to use the government to take away our most essential and precious freedoms.” It’s not quite concise enough to work as a buzzword, but I think it’s accurate. I hope the judge is disbarred (debenched? defrocked? What do you call it?) and then publicly flogged. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/45 "2005-05-26T18:28:27Z")
It’s remarkable that a person can get to be judge and still be so ignorant of the Constitution and its ideals. ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/46 "2005-05-26T19:04:41Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > (On a personal note, I’m expecting a social worker from whatever DCFS is called now to come to my house this afternoon. They’re coming to tell me what services my very premie daughter is entitled to. I’ve been trying to decide if I should put the pentacles and athames under wraps for the afternoon to avoid any unpleasantness. I think I’ll leave them out just to be ornery.) Just as an aside, we never put away any of our religious items (both Wiccan and Buddhist) when physical therapy, Early Intervention or any of the social services folks came to see Emmy. They gave a couple of glances to the pentacles but they never mentioned it at all. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/47 "2005-05-26T19:11:41Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I went to Catholic school and we had a few non-Catholics attending. Their parents put them there for other reasons, (mainly child abuse) Well, then they were sent to the right place. 😉 If the parents continue to teach their kid Wicca, how exactly is the judge going to know? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/48 "2005-05-26T19:14:14Z")
U.S. Constitution, !st Amendment **Congress shall make no law** respecting an establishment of religion, or **prohibiting the free exercise thereof** ; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. This is a clear violation and should take about 5 minutes to overturn. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/49 "2005-05-26T19:17:28Z")
Ree-dicalus. I’m sure it will be overturned on appeal, but the fact that this guy has judicial authority at all, with no idea of when it’s inappropriate to apply it, it appalling. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/50 "2005-05-26T19:41:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. This goes well beyond activism, which at least PRETENDS to have a basis for their decisions, and into outright error. Question-could the judge be disbarred for this, kicked off the bench, anything? ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/51 "2005-05-26T19:42:18Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Well, then they were sent to the right place. 😉 > > If the parents continue to teach their kid Wicca, how exactly is the judge going to know? I agree that if I were in their Wicca-loving shoes, I’d teach them whatever I wanted, safe inthe knowledge that the judge was unlikely to find out, but the fact that the moron would even offer an opinion, much less one with Judicial powers, galls me. It probably won’t happen in IN, or even in Chicago, quite frankly, but the best use of power would be for voters to remove this maroon from the bench ASAP. Impeach and ensconce him in his future as a lay preacher on the street corner. I forget whose point I’m referring to, but it’s a damn shame when the only “good” local school is a Catholic one. Maybe I’m too intolerant, but the fact that they exist to fill minds full of mythic garbage cancels out any positives they bring to the local educational system. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/52 "2005-05-26T19:51:24Z")
\hey there **Cemetary**! I like Arlington Heights-nice town. I’m down in here in Homewood. I see your point, and doubt that IN has the school funding issues that IL does (no, I’m not gonna look it up-IL ranks something like 49 for school funding, so I’m taking a chance here), but for some areas, it may be the best solution. I am not pro-voucher in the least, but I do see the advantage to having the option. I do wonder what a Lutheran or Calvinist school would have to say about these parents and Wicca, though. Hopefully, it would be a non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/53 "2005-05-26T20:03:16Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > \hey there **Cemetary**! I like Arlington Heights-nice town. I’m down in here in Homewood. > > I see your point, and doubt that IN has the school funding issues that IL does (no, I’m not gonna look it up-IL ranks something like 49 for school funding, so I’m taking a chance here), but for some areas, it may be the best solution. I am not pro-voucher in the least, but I do see the advantage to having the option. > > I do wonder what a Lutheran or Calvinist school would have to say about these parents and Wicca, though. Hopefully, it would be a non-issue. I like Homewood, too. Lots of college friends from that area. I think I took the opportunity to bash on religion (great story in today’s Trib about Robert Sherman’s son having a job offer as a teacher revoked after his parentage was mentioned. I wholeheartedly agree that a religious school is sometimes the best option, education-wise (which is part of why my wife and I choose to live in Arl Hts.). I don’t deride people who send their children there out of a calculated education-based need. I just don’t like the concept of religious-based schools. Why not create a school that teaches the Beneficience Of BArney, the Purple Dinosaur? Wow…upon preview…sorry for the 83 hijacks in that post. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/54 "2005-05-26T20:13:41Z")
Hey, I see this as progress for Indiana. At least the judge didn’t order the parents dunked or burned at the stake. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/55 "2005-05-26T20:14:28Z")
[hijack]Jeebus-just read it. Sounds fishy to me, too. [end hijack] and now back to thread… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/56 "2005-05-26T20:20:51Z")
Just chiming in over here as I started a thread on this over in **GD**. I happen to know the parents, the child, and the father’s lawyer. The parents are NOT lunatic fringe at all, pretty standard middle-of-the-road pagans. The main reason I’m commenting at all were the posts asking why the kid is in Catholic school to start with. In the particular district they live in, the public schools are abysmal. I’d send my daughter to private school, too, did I live in the part of town they do. Frankly, I think the judge should be worrying more about why the kid has to be in private school to get a decent education than worrying about what his amicably divorced parents choose to teach him about their religion. On a more personal note, since I can’t make such comments on my **GD** post, it scares the Hel out of me as a pagan parent. And honestly, think about it: just substitute the word _Jewish_ or _Muslim_ for _Wiccan_ and how many more people would freak out? I choose to live in Indiana…but this frightens me. Lots. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/57 "2005-05-26T20:34:09Z")
> [@Indyellen](#): > > The parents are NOT lunatic fringe at all, pretty standard middle-of-the-road pagans. > > … > > And honestly, think about it: just substitute the word _Jewish_ or _Muslim_ for _Wiccan_ and how many more people would freak out? > > I choose to live in Indiana…but this frightens me. Lots. IndyEllen, please feel free to move up here to the NW 'burbs. Great schools, to the point where there’s only one Catholic HS, and it’s not in the top 5 local rankings. If you substituted any of those religions, the papers would run amok. The fact is that Wiccan/Paganism is viewed by most to be a religious home for the Nutty Bunch. They’re probably viewed as being below flippin’ Scientology for most! ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/58 "2005-05-26T20:42:42Z")
Homewood is alot closer–only about 10 miles to the IN line. And we have a thrice won Blue Ribbon High School…c’mon over! We like everybody. Plus for me: I get to pick a Wiccan’s brain. So, you calling the moving van or what? ---
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/59 "2005-05-26T20:52:31Z")
> [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > IndyEllen, please feel free to move up here to the NW 'burbs. Great schools, to the point where there’s only one Catholic HS, and it’s not in the top 5 local rankings. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > Homewood is alot closer–only about 10 miles to the IN line. > > And we have a thrice won Blue Ribbon High School…c’mon over! We like everybody. Plus for me: I get to pick a Wiccan’s brain. > > So, you calling the moving van or what? Well, thanks, both of you…very hospitable over there in the Land o’Lincoln. 🙂 If I could be sure both my BF & I could get jobs, we might think about it. BTW, **eleanorigby** , feel free to pick this Wiccan’s brain anytime, although these days I’m much closer to a generic Pagan/agnostic. Besides, you’re a nurse, aren’t you? I work for an ENT practice, so we can bitch about life in the medical system, too. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/60 "2005-05-26T21:00:21Z")
Near as I can figure, this thread started first, then mine in General Questions, then **Indyellen’s** in Great Debates. The three are different, as you’d expect in the different forums, although some posters seem to have identical posts in 2 or 3. Here in the Pit, I can say that Judge Bradford is a member of the new Taliban. Who’s next on his list of non-mainstream religions to persecute? The Amish? Jehovah’s Witnesses? Mormons? This guy ;j ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618.md?page=4)