# Pagans, Athiests, and Mormons, beware! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618 "2005-05-26T16:28:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/61 "2005-05-26T21:04:44Z")
> [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > If you substituted any of those religions, the papers would run amok. The fact is that Wiccan/Paganism is viewed by most to be a religious home for the Nutty Bunch. They’re probably viewed as being below flippin’ Scientology for most! Worse. I have known people who literally believe that Wiccans are witches, evil and should be killed. At least one person quoted the “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” line and another person considered my tarot deck eeevil. And these were otherwise very intelligent guys that I really liked… excepting for the religious brainwashing. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/62 "2005-05-26T21:19:56Z")
Indiana?! _snicker snicker_ ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/63 "2005-05-26T21:33:39Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > Here in the Pit, I can say that Judge Bradford is a member of the new Taliban. Who’s next on his list of non-mainstream religions to persecute? The Amish? Jehovah’s Witnesses? Mormons? This guy ;j ? There are days that I consider it a minor blessing that my minority religious affiliations are so obscure that it’s highly unlikely anyone’s _heard_ of them to throw a hissy about. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/64 "2005-05-26T22:23:45Z")
I know it’ll be overturned, and I’m sure it will be soon, but it pisses me off that these people have to pay for it. If there’s a way to sue the judge to reclaim the lawyers fees, I hope they do it. Then, and only then, turn the judge into a frog. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/65 "2005-05-26T22:37:03Z")
Holy Carp **Eleanor**! I work one town east of you. Small world (wouldn’t wanna paint it, though) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/66 "2005-05-26T22:38:06Z")
> [@Lilairen](#): > > There are days that I consider it a minor blessing that my minority religious affiliations are so obscure that it’s highly unlikely anyone’s _heard_ of them to throw a hissy about. When there is a purge against Thelemites, I will consider the religious right to be rather well read 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/67 "2005-05-26T23:31:53Z")
> [@Dragwyr](#): > > Did the judge have a bad day that day or something? Some people have bad hair days. Hizzoner was having a bad brain day. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/68 "2005-05-26T23:52:34Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Holy Carp **Eleanor**! I work one town east of you. Small world (wouldn’t wanna paint it, though) Um…I am guessing this is an obscure reference to\* Dutch[I/] boy paints? If not, I have no clue which town is east of me…there are many! Anyhoo, nice to meetcha. YOu can call me Rigby. 🙂 **Indyellen** --I know what an ankh (sp?) looks like, but I went on the Wicca site that **whynot** was nice enough to post, and it says that you should make your own tools. Stupid question: is the ankh a tool and how would one make one (short of taking up metallurgy etc)? And where can I purchase one? Aside (and complete hijack): I went 2 summers ago to the Salem musuem in MA. I was blown away–not be what happened there, but by the gift shop and the display about Wicca–very informative and intriguing. I was especially taken by a “proverb” or statement–something about whatever you do comes back to you three times. So, if you put evil out there…essentially you reap what you sow etc. So sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/69 "2005-05-26T23:53:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Question-could the judge be disbarred for this, kicked off the bench, anything? This is my question. Obviously his offensively ignorant decision will be overturned with extreme prejudice, probably by lunchtime tomorrow, but doesn’t it seem like true justice should include the immediate removal of this nutskulled puke from his position? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/70 "2005-05-27T00:06:11Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Aside (and complete hijack): I went 2 summers ago to the Salem musuem in MA. I was blown away–not be what happened there, but by the gift shop and the display about Wicca–very informative and intriguing. I was especially taken by a “proverb” or statement–something about whatever you do comes back to you three times. So, if you put evil out there…essentially you reap what you sow etc. Um…I’m just curious. You do know that what happened at Salem had absolutely **NOTHING** to with Wicca, don’t you? I hope. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/71 "2005-05-27T00:16:01Z")
That’s fine. Where did I say that Wicca had anything to do with Salem? But in the gift shop and in the museum there were very nice, informative displays about Wicca. If you go to the gift shop, you will find books about Wicca, ankhs, pentacles, funny witches hats, Hogwarts stuff, Bewitched stuff, historical tomes about witch hunts etc. A little something for everyone. It was the first place and time that I had read anything about Wicca. Is that clear now? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/72 "2005-05-27T00:44:52Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > That’s fine. Where did I say that Wicca had anything to do with Salem? > > But in the gift shop and in the museum there were very nice, informative displays about Wicca. If you go to the gift shop, you will find books about Wicca, ankhs, pentacles, funny witches hats, Hogwarts stuff, Bewitched stuff, historical tomes about witch hunts etc. A little something for everyone. > > It was the first place and time that I had read anything about Wicca. > > Is that clear now? You didn’t say Wicca had anything to do with Salem, and if your first exposure to the religion just happened to be there, that’s great. No harm, no foul. However, there are too many stupid little Goth girls who grab onto “Wicca” in an attempt to piss of their parents who do spread the crap that the “witches” of Salem were practitioners of Wicca, that the religion was that of the Druids and a whole lot of other ignorant crap to let it pass. They demean a legitimate religion (as legitimate as any of them anyway) in a fit of teenage angst and define the religion for a lot of folks who don’t know any better, doing a real disservice to those folks who do take their beliefs seriously and not as an excuse to wear black and moodily get drunk and laid in the woods on Friday nights. [This cartoon](http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04242002.shtml) is a brilliant example of what I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/73 "2005-05-27T01:05:38Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > **Indyellen** --I know what an ankh (sp?) looks like, but I went on the Wicca site that **whynot** was nice enough to post, and it says that you should make your own tools. > Stupid question: is the ankh a tool and how would one make one (short of taking up metallurgy etc)? > > And where can I purchase one? An ankh is usually worn as a piece of jewelry, not used as a tool. There are a number of places to get them; check Google or (fumbling through bookmarks) [AzureGreen](http://www.azuregreen.biz/departments.php) is a reasonably priced decent store. I suppose you could make your own via wirecrafting, but I’m not a jewelry maker, so I don’t know otherwise. (BTW, I _consecrate_ my own tools, but usually don’t _make_ them. Traditions vary.) The site that **whynot** posted is good, but is just one flavor of Wicca. To get a better idea of the diversity, check out [The Witches Voice](http://www.witchvox.com) (if you can, I had trouble accessing this evening.) Another site which looks reasonably good is [The Cauldron](http://www.ecauldron.com/). There’s also a good general site on [religioustolerance.org](http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm) about Wicca. Hope that helps; sorry for the additional hijacking! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/74 "2005-05-27T01:08:52Z")
> [@](#): > > **Excalibre** : …It would be hard to call this decision a legislative one. > > I’d lean more towards “a despicable attempt to use the government to take away our most essential and precious freedoms.” I would agree with you. Unfortunately, that’s how many Conservatives and members of the Religious Right view the decisions they are labelling as “judicial activism.” They want the freedom to protect the life of “unborn children” and the freedom “to keep marriage sacred between a man and a woman.” How did this person get to be a judge without basic knowledge of the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/75 "2005-05-27T01:09:46Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > **Indyellen** --I know what an ankh (sp?) looks like, but I went on the Wicca site that **whynot** was nice enough to post, and it says that you should make your own tools. > Stupid question: is the ankh a tool and how would one make one (short of taking up metallurgy etc)? > > And where can I purchase one? An ankh isn’t one of the tools of Wicca, but it’s a symbol that many Wiccans like. Many like it simply because others do, but it symbolizes fertility, in the sex-act sense. (Look at the bottom “stick” as the penis and the top Omega-shape as the uterus/cervix.) I would bet that only about 40% of Wiccans know this meaning, though. Most like it 'cause it looks esoteric and spooky. Never underestimate the power of [Sculpey](http://www.sculpey.com/). It can be used to create many things, and painted to look like metal or marble. If you wanted to buy an ankh, there are many online sites (Google “pagan jewelry”), and many silver kiosks in the mall will also carry them. Of course, if you’re lucky enough to have a New Age or esoteric bookstore in your area, they often carry jewelry as well. Witchvox is a great resource for articles, lessons and liks to pagan communities and retailers. We traditionally use tools to represent each of the four physical elements (earth, air, fire and water) and occasionally the fifth (spirit). Some people keep these very simple: athame for air, candle for fire, incense or feather for air, salt or rock for earth. Others get very elaborate. Some people make their own, others buy them, and still others adapt things they buy. (My first pentacle, for example, was an earthenware bowl I found at a thrift store that I painted a pentacle on after cleansing. I though earthenware was appropriate for an earth symbol.) Some people (often calling themselves “Kitchen Witches”) don’t even have dedicated magickal tools, but use their bread knife for an athame, their cooking salt for casting circle, and their mixing bowls for mixing incense. [Here’s a page of tools](http://www.alphalink.com.au/~sunz/wiccatools.html) - almost noone uses all of these, or all of them at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/76 "2005-05-27T01:13:58Z")
Or- uh- what \*\*Indyellen \*\*said. (Witchvox = Witch’s Voice, and I can’t get it to load right now either.) Yes, Gavin and Yvonne present only one school of Wicca. However, they are the legal “Church of Wicca” and the folks who fought the IRS for equal recognition and church status. When I read the quote that there “is no Church of Wicca” it seemed like a huge slap in the face to the Frosts and all the hard work they’ve done. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/77 "2005-05-27T01:23:01Z")
> [@Indyellen](#): > > An ankh is usually worn as a piece of jewelry, not used as a tool. \ I was of the impression that even when used as jewlery, it still serves as a sigil. \ > [@WhyNot](#): > > Some people keep these very simple: athame for air, candle for fire, incense or feather for air, salt or rock for earth. I knew it, y’all disregard water. Damn anti-feminine witchcraft! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/78 "2005-05-27T01:26:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I knew it, y’all disregard water. Damn anti-feminine witchcraft! 😉 Goddess damnit! I’m such an airhead tonight! 😃 Of course - water. Often represented by…water. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/79 "2005-05-27T01:26:33Z")
Wow. Thank you both very much. Very snarky cartoon! Just the way I like 'em. I will look at those sites this weekend; I hafta work in the AM, so I am off to bed (and it’s only 8:30 pm–I am so lame!) I was under the impression that ergot poisoning played a part in the Salem witch trials. Also, group hysteria and not a little teenage peer pressure. I don’t recall alot of the presentation (which is well done), because I was busy re-assuring my kids that it wasn’t real (very realistic and scarey, even for school age kids. Although my kids are like me in that they dislike horror stuff–got scared at Wizard of Oz etc). Of course, we all know that Salem and the other European witch hunts had nothing whatsoever to do with witches, right? They (to me) serve as a commentary on the fear that independent, knowledgable women engender in others. But that’s another thread! What little I do know of Wicca is that it seems to be a very misunderstood and maligned religion. I am interested in learning more about it. I don’t know if I will practice it–this path in the journey seems right to me for now. (is that new age-y enough? hee). Thanks again for the info. And I hope this judge is de-frocked or un-gavelled or whatever they do to judges who ignore the law. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/80 "2005-05-27T01:35:45Z")
I’m just a little athy. Should I beware? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618.md?page=5)