# Pagans, Athiests, and Mormons, beware! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618 "2005-05-26T16:28:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/81 "2005-05-27T02:14:05Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > [This cartoon](http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04242002.shtml) is a brilliant example of what I’m talking about. And this one (see also the return of the pest). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/82 "2005-05-27T02:57:57Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I’m just a little athy. Should I beware? Well, you can’t be too careful. I’d recommend trying as hard as possible to be completely athless. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/83 "2005-05-27T03:10:24Z")
I knew **Weirddave** was going to link to Something_Positive! And of course the Queen of Wands ones (one of my LJ Friends is Aeire’s housemate and I shared a fandom with her for a while (of Boy Meets Boy)). There’s always been a strange synergy between S_P and QoW… On topic…yeah, between the CraftKiddies and the FluffyBunnies, Wicca gets pulled in a lot of weird directions in public awareness. Most serious practitioners tend to look at both of the aforementioned factions as idiots. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/84 "2005-05-27T03:58:48Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I was especially taken by a “proverb” or statement–something about whatever you do comes back to you three times. So, if you put evil out there…essentially you reap what you sow etc. > > So sorry for the hijack. Hey, **eleanorigby** , it didn’t seem like you got an out and out answer, so I thought I’d post. Yes, what you read is considered one of the two major tenets of Wicca. That is the Rule of Three: whatsoever you do will return to you threefold. The other is the Wiccan Rede: “An [if] it harms none, do as you will.” The idea behind these two guidelines is that individuals are free to do as they choose with the understanding that payback comes around in very short time. As most Wiccans believe in the ability to change external forces through will (magic or “magick”), the Rule of Three and the Rede act as a brake, keeping individuals from going hogwild and wreaking havok. The tool you mentioned isn’t an ankh but an athame, or sacred knife. Depending on your flavor of Wiccan, you may have one, two, none, or a full fledged sword instead of a knife. Most Wiccans feel that the very best tool is one you make yourself, though the difficulties with that often mean that Wiccans settle for consecrating their tools. I have a bronze athame that I made in college at a sculpture class. Most Wiccans if they make any of their tools choose to make their wand. It’s a lot easier to carve a stick than it is to cast bronze. The other posters have mentioned some excellent sites for further reading. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/85 "2005-05-27T04:14:24Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > You didn’t say Wicca had anything to do with Salem, and if your first exposure to the religion just happened to be there, that’s great. No harm, no foul. > > However, there are too many stupid little Goth girls who grab onto “Wicca” in an attempt to piss of their parents who do spread the crap that the “witches” of Salem were practitioners of Wicca, that the religion was that of the Druids and a whole lot of other ignorant crap to let it pass. They demean a legitimate religion (as legitimate as any of them anyway) in a fit of teenage angst and define the religion for a lot of folks who don’t know any better, doing a real disservice to those folks who do take their beliefs seriously and not as an excuse to wear black and moodily get drunk and laid in the woods on Friday nights. > > [This cartoon](http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04242002.shtml) is a brilliant example of what I’m talking about. It’s also disrespectful to the victims of the Salem hysteria, who were INNOCENT of the “crime” they were accused of–a crime they, themselves, considered a real danger. Remember that they disagreed that they, in particular, were GUILTY of witchcraft, but not with the basic idea that witchcraft was a real and present threat, and would be appalled to know that they are idolized for beliefs/practices that they never embraced and, in fact, would have considered heretical. It’s like if you got framed for smoking pot, and everyone was quick to assure you that smoking pot was no big deal, really, it shouldn’t be a crime, and they made you a martyr to the cause for pot legalization, but you kept trying to explain that that wasn’t the fucking point, you really weren’t smoking pot and you think it should be illegal to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/86 "2005-05-27T04:42:36Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Stupid question: is the ankh a tool and how would one make one (short of taking up metallurgy etc)? > > And where can I purchase one? The ankh is an Egyptian symbol with a meaning of ‘life’ and somewhat ‘rebirth’; you’ll frequently see icons of the netjeru carrying one. It is most frequently worn by Kemetics, Egyptian-oriented pagans, and people who read _Sandman_ comics. It’s a heiroglyph that most Egyptologists seem to believe to be a representation of a sandal strap; I have no idea why this is supposed to mean ‘life’. It’s entirely likely that any pagan jewelry website will have one, if you fancy them. > [@Indyellen](#): > > The site that **whynot** posted is good, but is just one flavor of Wicca. To get a better idea of the diversity, check out [The Witches Voice](http://www.witchvox.com) (if you can, I had trouble accessing this evening.) Another site which looks reasonably good is [The Cauldron](http://www.ecauldron.com/). [Obligatory caveat for disclosure purposes: I am staff at The Cauldron. Not on the message board, mind, but I’m chief coder for the associated MUX chatroom.] I would strongly recommend The Cauldron to pagan and pagan-curious Dopers. I see people over there saying, “Cite?” just as much as I do over here. 😉 It’s an excellent interfaith site in general, and one that tends to be very information-focused. It also covers a broad range of pagan religions, and doesn’t fall prey to the “pagan is just another word for something that’s just like Wicca” problem. The stuff written up in the essays section tends to be by people who know their shit, and tends to come from a variety of perspectives (I believe, for example, that there’s an article by one of the hosts about his opinion that religious secrecy is a crock, and one by a fairly traditional Wiccan about the importance of oathbound material). Basically, it’s a board that has a low bullshit tolerance, a wide range of perspectives, and a lot of people who know what they’re talking about (about a variety of religions). It’s a little more recon-leaning than most pagan sites, but since most pagan sites are, in my experience, mostly Wiccan sites I don’t consider this a problem. 😉 There are also a number of pagan-friendly and pagan-curious folks of other religions, including one staffer who is a Catholic theologian. There are a broad variety of recons and near-recons, religious witches from several different traditions (not just Wicca and its derivatives), as well as other, lesser-known religions, seasoned lightly with the more ‘mainstream’ members. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/87 "2005-05-27T06:19:48Z")
Incidentally, here is something that was posted to Witchvox and has been making the rounds of LJ: > [@](#): > > Tom is currently doing interviews but would like me to pass this message along. (This has been picked up by the Associated Press as well as local news stations.) > > Please stop sending any letters or making any calls to any of the groups associated with this case. There will be a time for it, but this is NOT it. Our lawyer, Ken Falk, Director of the Indiana Civil Liberties Union, fears this will hurt the case more at this point than help it. The Indiana Court of Appeals is reviewing the case. We do not wish to irritate them or any of the other organizations at such a critical time. > > We greatly appreciate the support of the Pagan community. We never doubted it would happen but are taken aback at how quickly the Pagan community all over the US has rallied behind this situation. We’ve been silently fighting this for over a year and are thankful for the energy boost. [link](http://www.witchvox.com/wren/wn_detail.html?id=13019) ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/88 "2005-05-27T10:01:50Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others. > -Thomas Jefferson I’ve always liked another quote of his on the subject: “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” -Thomas Jefferson ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/89 "2005-05-27T10:21:34Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I know what an ankh (sp?) looks like, but I went on the Wicca site that **whynot** was nice enough to post, and it says that you should make your own tools. > Stupid question: is the ankh a tool and how would one make one (short of taking up metallurgy etc)? > > And where can I purchase one? Might you mean [Athame](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athame)? It seems to me that you are confusing [Ankh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh) and[Athame](http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usut&c=basics&id=3799). Some traditions of Wicca hold that you should make your own tools, including the Athame. There are places that sell Athames all over the net, I just did a search for “Athame blacksmith” and found this [site](http://www.renaissanceharbor.com/nokomis_forge.htm). ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/90 "2005-05-27T10:45:50Z")
Nah. I’m not confusing them. The ankh was listed, as well as a bunch of other stuff, that Wiccans should make. That confused me, because the only time I have seen an ankh (besides in Egytptian depictions) is as jewelry…so I got to thinking and wondered–would I have to make my own jewelry? Plus, I had no idea how an ankh was used–why would I? There is so much at every website–this could take a long time to sort thru for me, just to evaluate it. (that sounds cold and clinical; it’s not meant to, just can’t think of any other term…perhaps sift thru would be better). thank you all for offering suggestions and support. It sounds like there is an entire world out there, quiet and yet resilent. Heck-anyone up for an “ask the Wiccan” thread? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/91 "2005-05-27T11:20:09Z")
> [@Manda JO](#): > > It’s also disrespectful to the victims of the Salem hysteria, who were INNOCENT of the “crime” they were accused of–a crime they, themselves, considered a real danger. Remember that they disagreed that they, in particular, were GUILTY of witchcraft, but not with the basic idea that witchcraft was a real and present threat, and would be appalled to know that they are idolized for beliefs/practices that they never embraced and, in fact, would have considered heretical. > > It’s like if you got framed for smoking pot, and everyone was quick to assure you that smoking pot was no big deal, really, it shouldn’t be a crime, and they made you a martyr to the cause for pot legalization, but you kept trying to explain that that wasn’t the fucking point, you really weren’t smoking pot and you think it should be illegal to do so. Actually, many of the things witches were accused of doing (e.g. cursing people to make them sick) quite properly **should** be illegal if the witchcraft actually worked. Indeed, one can make a case that it should be illegal if the would-be curser actually expected it to work, even if it didn’t – an utterly inept attempt to commit a crime is still a crime in itself. Given that, a better analogy might be somebody framed for dumping toxic waste, or producing kiddie porn, where there is just no controversy among reasonable people about the wrongness and illegality\* of the act. (\*Well, a reasonable anarchist would obviously reject the whole concept of “illegality”, but I’d put that aside as a separate issue.) ---
**Author:** ![sewalk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@sewalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sewalk)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/92 "2005-05-27T11:21:39Z")
I thought things like this only happen in Oklahoma and Kansas and then I remember Indiana. This judge makes Donald Thompson\* look like John Marshall. \*You know, the penis pumper ---
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/93 "2005-05-27T15:02:28Z")
In case anyone felt like getting activist on this issue, the family has requested that people DON’T (at this time.) > [@Jones Family](#): > > Tom is currently doing interviews but would like me to pass this message along. (This has been picked up by the Associated Press as well as local news stations.) > > Please stop sending any letters or making any calls to any of the groups associated with this case. There will be a time for it, but this is NOT it. Our lawyer, Ken Falk, Director of the Indiana Civil Liberties Union, fears this will hurt the case more at this point than help it. The Indiana Court of Appeals is reviewing the case. We do not wish to irritate them or any of the other organizations at such a critical time. > > We greatly appreciate the support of the Pagan community. We never doubted it would happen but are taken aback at how quickly the Pagan community all over the US has rallied behind this situation. We’ve been silently fighting this for over a year and are thankful for the energy boost. Link to original [here](http://www.witchvox.com/wren/wn_detail.html?id=13019&offset=12) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/94 "2005-05-27T15:06:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Ludovic](#): > > > > I’m just a little athy. Should I beware? > > Well, you can’t be too careful. I’d recommend trying as hard as possible to be completely athless. I have some athless chaps for sale, if you’re in the market. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/95 "2005-05-27T15:31:18Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no > God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” -Thomas Jefferson Except for that whole tithing thing for Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/96 "2005-05-27T15:32:07Z")
> [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > Except for that whole tithing thing for Catholics. My church never had tithes. Where did you get this idea? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/97 "2005-05-27T15:37:50Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Ok-so now you’ve lost me. Am I the one who is saying “I don’t like this decision” or is the RR? It can’t be the RR, since they consider witches to be Satanists (they are wrong, but that’s another thread). > . This RRist doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/98 "2005-05-27T15:47:13Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > My church never had tithes. Where did you get this idea? Because the Catholic church _does_ tithe. Yours is not the only one in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/99 "2005-05-27T15:52:40Z")
Er. World, dammit. :smack: [This site](http://www.sjy.org/Church/Tithing.asp) states > [@](#): > > more than 800 Catholic parishes in the Northeast have become tithing parishes. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618/100 "2005-05-27T16:10:47Z")
800 our of how many I wonder. 800 sounds like a pretty small sample, for the entire Northeast. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pagans-athiests-and-mormons-beware/305618.md?page=6)