# Paging Oliver Stone -- Leni Riefenstahl is on the line. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 26, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289 "2003-04-26T07:26:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/1 "2003-04-26T07:26:02Z")
Oliver Stone – love him or hate him, ya gotta admit he’s one hell of a director. That’s why I am so bummed out, Mr. Stone, that we won’t get to see your latest work. It’s a documentary on Fidel Castro. Mr. Stone, when you were allowed into Castro’s presence, you found him to be [“warm and bright,” adding, “he’s a very driven man, a very moral man. He’s very concerned about his country. He’s selfless in that way.”](http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0203/ingraham021103.asp) [“We should look to him as one of the earth’s wisest people, one of the people we should consult.”](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/17/entertainment/main549870.shtml) Now there are a bunch of spoilsports who don’t want to let us see your latest opus. And it’s all because Cuba line three guys up against a wall and shot them for an attempted hijacking in which no one was injured. And just because Castro has sent 70-some dissidents to prison for long stretches for the horrendous crime of advocating democracy. At least no dissidents were hurt in the making of _your_ film. But such tribulations face all great artists like you, Mr. Stone, and … and … And I just can’t keep the sarcasm muffled. Oliver Stone, what kind of diseased, myopic, willfully blinkered ultra-out-there, ass-kissing whacko are you? For Christ’s sake, you could build a conspiracy case based on the nuthouse ramblings of Jim Garrison in “JFK,” and you couldn’t see that Castro is a **dictator?** God almighty, do you need for the message to be delivered to you by a goddamned spaceship before you believe it? Lookit, Olly, in “JFK” you were willing to believe accusations made by [the Louisiana Ku Klux Klan](http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100perj.html) when it suited you. You could believe the claims made by “General X,” who turned out to be based on [L. Fletcher Prouty](http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100whox.html) who claims, among other things, that Franklin Roosevelt died because Winston Churchill had him poisoned, that Princess Grace of Monaco was probably assassinated by the same hit team that killed JFK, and that the Air Force is keeping a couple of extraterrestial bodies on ice. Oh, and whose claims to insider Pentagon information have been proved groundless. You could believe in a vast government conspiracy outlined in Garrison’s version of events even though Garrison’s star witness, [Perry Russo, had himself said his testimony wasn’t true.](http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100perj.html) You were not the least bit fazed that Garrison’s other star witness, [Charles Spiesel,](http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100bigjim.html) once tried to sue New York City on that grounds that officials “kept him hypnotized for periods of time, caused him to make errors in his work because of their hypnotic control (and) hired ‘plants’ to work in his office,” and utilized “disguises in their attempts to pass themselves off as his relatives.” Shit, you were willing to **invent** somebody named [“Willie O’Keefe”](http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100okeefe.html) to mouth the claims you wanted to make. BUT YOU CAN’T PICK UP A GODDAMN NEWSPAPER AND FIND OUT THAT CASTRO IS – NO SHIT! – A DICTATOR? You think maybe the Agent Orange got to you a little bit back in 'Nam, Olly? And say, aren’t you the guy who once did that film “Salvador” about how terribly oppressive a Latin American country is? Of course, the real flaw of El Salvador must have been not having leaders who are “warm” “bright” “selfless” “moral” leaders like Fidel Castro, one of the wisest men on earth. Let us pray for Olly. Maybe the CIA finally became to afraid of him and started coating his camera with crack cocaine that can be absorbed through the skin? Or maybe messrs. Or maybe Spiesel and Prouty teamed up to have the Tri-Lateral Commission have the UFOs train a beam on Olly that turns its victims into clueless Hollywood fuckwits. No, wait. Olly, you don’t need a secret treatment for that. You’re a “Natural Born Fuckwit.” Just go the fuck away, Olly. Go on. Get back to the outer fringes. Back. And to the left … back … and to the left … back … ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/2 "2003-04-26T07:53:27Z")
Tell me, if I were to make a documentary on Adolf Hitler, would I be allowed to make the comment that he was a talented orator and charismatic leader? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/3 "2003-04-26T07:59:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Narrad \* > \*\*Tell me, if I were to make a documentary on Adolf Hitler, would I be allowed to make the comment that he was a talented orator and charismatic leader? \*\* Sure. But if you called him “one of the earth’s wisest people” and “someone we should consult”, than the Klan may offer you a membership. I think Stone has really lost it here. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/4 "2003-04-26T09:50:48Z")
I think we should judge this documentary film – or _any_ film, for that matter – on its entirety. Not on two quotes by the director, made at a film festival\* and potentially taken out of context. YM-of course-V. The OP says Stone fails to grasp the fact that Castro is a dictator. I say perhaps we could wait until we see or otherwise learn more about the film (if it’s released). Who’s to say what aspects of the Cuban regime it condems and what aspects it condones or glosses over? - Is it beyond any stretch of the imagination that a director would deliberately make inflammatory comments at a festival to drum up interest in a film? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/5 "2003-04-26T15:32:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Is it beyond any stretch of the imagination that a director would deliberately make inflammatory comments at a festival to drum up interest in a film? No, it isn’t. But I think the raving, paranoid schizophrenics of the world need to send Stone a letter. He is giving them a bad name. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/6 "2003-04-26T17:13:27Z")
Andy, are you actually suprised that a man who only believes what the men in his head tell him to would ignore the human rights record of Castro? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/7 "2003-04-26T18:51:25Z")
Personally, I think it would’ve been hilarious if Castro had pulled Stone aside one day and said, “Just between you and me, Olly, it was my people who shot JFK. I ordered him whacked for payback on the Bay of Pigs and because he made Marilyn Monroe cry.” I mean, think about it, with his record Oliver Stone would never be able to convince anyone this conversation really happened. ---
**Author:** ![Morrigoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@Morrigoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrigoon)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/8 "2003-04-26T19:00:10Z")
Having been present at an event in which Mr. Stone spoke to a small, mostly film-school audience at USC, in which he was very candid, I can say with utmost certainty that Oliver Stone is, in fact, a natural born fuckwit. Maybe it’s my jingoistic side, but when someone fortunate enough to be in the 3% of humankind lucky enough to be born an American says he doesn’t like America - they lose all credibility with me. (yes, I know that sentence was poorly constructed, so sue me). He made a lot of disparaging remarks that night about our government and our nation as a whole that I have no -I repeat, NO respect left for him. There’s enough directing talent out there superior to his that I feel no obligation to do lip service to his own when I so strongly object to his overall character. Stone is an asshat, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/9 "2003-04-26T19:29:17Z")
Hell, I didn’t need to hear him speak in person to lose all respect for him: watching his movies was enough. I haven’t seen all of his movie by a long stretch, but I have yet to see one that I didn’t find insulting on some level. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/10 "2003-04-26T22:52:17Z")
I am proud to have pissed off Oliver Stone! About eight years ago, I wrote a review of a baby movie for _Movieline_ (you know, one of those videos they make to amuse babies?). I watched it with an Actual Baby, and wrote, “Marisa had the same reaction to it that I have to Oliver Stone films: she cried for awhile and then fell asleep.” _Movieline_ got a letter from Stone’s PR people, asking me to lay off! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/11 "2003-04-27T00:25:30Z")
Eve, just when I think you couldn’t be any cooler, I find out you’re on Oliver Stone’s Enemy List. You rock. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/12 "2003-04-27T00:34:42Z")
When I opened this thread, I couldn’t figure out why people were complaining about an Oliver Stone movie. He doesn’t make movies. Then I realized that I was confusing him with Oliver _North_. I need to lie down for a while… ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/13 "2003-04-27T02:22:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*I watched it with an Actual Baby, and wrote, “Marisa had the same reaction to it that I have to Oliver Stone films: she cried for awhile and then fell asleep.” > > _Movieline_ got a letter from Stone’s PR people, asking me to lay off! \*\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/14 "2003-04-27T02:39:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Narrad \* > \*_I think we should judge this documentary film – or any film, for that matter – on its entirety. Not on two quotes by the director, made at a film festival_ and potentially taken out of context. > > YM-of course-V. > > The OP says Stone fails to grasp the fact that Castro is a dictator. I say perhaps we could wait until we see or otherwise learn more about the film (if it’s released). Who’s to say what aspects of the Cuban regime it condems and what aspects it condones or glosses over?\*\* In one of the links I provided, it says (with my emphasis added): > [@](#): > > (AP) Oliver Stone’s documentary on Fidel Castro has been postponed indefinitely by HBO, which had planned to broadcast the film next month. > > Stone spent three days with Castro in February 2002 in an attempt “to portray the human figure.” But HBO, which had promoted “Comandante” as “an unflinching portrait of the famous icon,” \*\*said Stone’s interpretation was undercut by the Cuban leader’s recent crackdowns. > > “In light of recent alarming events in the country, the film seems somewhat dated or incomplete,” \*\*said HBO spokeswoman Lana Iny, who characterized the film as “still in the works.” So bear with me here: Castro executes three hijackers after the briefest of trials and sends scores of people to prison for long terms because they advocated freedom. If Stone’s film were an even-handed, objective look at Castro, it would not be “undercut,” “dated” or “incomplete” because of those events. If, however, it was a piece of apologist fluff, then the fact that Castro was jailing people would, indeed, make the film look incomplete. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/15 "2003-04-27T02:46:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Morrigoon \* > \*\*Having been present at an event in which Mr. Stone spoke to a small, mostly film-school audience at USC, in which he was very candid, I can say with utmost certainty that Oliver Stone is, in fact, a natural born fuckwit. > > Maybe it’s my jingoistic side, but when someone fortunate enough to be in the 3% of humankind lucky enough to be born an American says he doesn’t like America - they lose all credibility with me. (yes, I know that sentence was poorly constructed, so sue me). He made a lot of disparaging remarks that night about our government and our nation as a whole that I have no -I repeat, NO respect left for him. There’s enough directing talent out there superior to his that I feel no obligation to do lip service to his own when I so strongly object to his overall character. > > Stone is an asshat, plain and simple. \*\* My suspicion is that Stone became so embittered by his Vietnam experiences that he fell into the “U.S. bad/non-U.S. good” way of thinking – the sort of thing that had protestors chaning “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh.” “Salvador” condemned oppression in a Latin American nation, but did so specifically because of the U.S. connection – the Iran/Contra thing. Don’t get me wrong – I think the ability to criticize our government is one of our greatest strengths. But when you criticize only democracies while apologizing for tyrants and dictators, you’ve gone around the bend. And that goes especially if you have to criticize democracies with the type of invented-out-of-thin-air charges in “JFK.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/16 "2003-04-27T02:48:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Morrigoon \* > \*\*Having been present at an event in which Mr. Stone spoke to a small, mostly film-school audience at USC, in which he was very candid, I can say with utmost certainty that Oliver Stone is, in fact, a natural born fuckwit. > > Maybe it’s my jingoistic side, but when someone fortunate enough to be in the 3% of humankind lucky enough to be born an American says he doesn’t like America - they lose all credibility with me. (yes, I know that sentence was poorly constructed, so sue me). He made a lot of disparaging remarks that night about our government and our nation as a whole that I have no -I repeat, NO respect left for him. There’s enough directing talent out there superior to his that I feel no obligation to do lip service to his own when I so strongly object to his overall character. > > Stone is an asshat, plain and simple. \*\* Before we start calling Oliver Stone anti-American let me remind everybody that he served for fifteen months in Vietnam with the 25th infantry. He was wounded twice in combat and received the Bronze Star for Valor and a Purple Heart. I thought we were supposed to show respect for war heros around here. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/17 "2003-04-27T02:56:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SpazCat \* > \*\*When I opened this thread, I couldn’t figure out why people were complaining about an Oliver Stone movie. He doesn’t make movies. Then I realized that I was confusing him with Oliver _North_. I need to lie down for a while… \*\* Do you mean that Oliver Stone and Oliver North are different people? ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/18 "2003-04-27T04:23:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Before we start calling Oliver Stone anti-American let me remind everybody that he served for fifteen months in Vietnam with the 25th infantry. He was wounded twice in combat and received the Bronze Star for Valor and a Purple Heart. I thought we were supposed to show respect for war heros around here. \*\* I respect his war service. I respect his directoral skill. In “JFK,” he proved many people wrong – the ones who said “you can’t polish a turd.” I just don’t respect his opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/19 "2003-04-27T04:28:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by don’t ask \* > \*\*Do you mean that Oliver Stone and Oliver North are different people? \*\* What ignorance. Of course they’re different. One of them starred with Stan Laurel. I got to explain everything round here. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289/20 "2003-04-27T14:43:39Z")
But which one did Charles Dickens base the lead character in _Green Acres_ on? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paging-oliver-stone-leni-riefenstahl-is-on-the-line/171289.md?page=2)