# paid sterilization **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 1999, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976 "1999-11-10T06:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 1999, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/21 "1999-11-21T06:34:00Z")
Never rose above minimum wage jobs…Well now,everyone who can only get a minimum wage job should be killed,I suppose!What useless lives! ---
**Author:** ![MarkSerlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@MarkSerlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarkSerlin)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 1999, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/22 "1999-11-21T04:31:00Z")
ORANGECAKES: You certainly have a knack for taking things out of context just to cause trouble. You have got to be some kind of sweetheart. * * * Mark “Think of it as Evolution in action.” ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 1999, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/23 "1999-11-21T15:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > YOU ARE AN IRRITATING BASTARD. YES, THERE IS A NATIONAL AND WORLD > WIDE INTELLIGENCE LEVEL. Really? Who exactly measures that, adn what is the current figure? > [@](#): > > WOULD YOU LIKE A DOCTOR TO OPERATE ON YOU WHO > HAS AN IQ OF 50 OR ONE WHO HAS AN IQ OF 150? If he or she is a competent surgeon, I really couldn’t possibly be less interested in his or her I.Q. I think you are under several misimpressions as to what I.Q. is. If someone is going to be performing surgery on me, I don’t care what their SAT score is or whether they could win on “Jeopardy!” I want to know if they are a qualified, board-certified surgeon. > [@](#): > > BESIDES, OTHERS, NOT JUST > MYSELF, HAVE NOTICED THAT THOSE OF LESS INTELLIGENCE ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY > TO BE LED INTO CRIME, RACIAL ACTIONS, RELIGIOUS ACTIONS, AND WAR. I doubt that the truth falls anywhere near this statement. In fact, personal experience tells me this is a heap of bullshit, unless you’re going to include about 100 disclaimers and qualifications. > [@](#): > > THEY ARE > EVEN MORE LIKELY TO PREY OFF OF THEIR OWN RACE AND RELIGION THAN SMARTER > PEOPLE. You know, serial killers are usually amazingly smart. As are most theologians. > [@](#): > > I AM > FOR FORCED STERILIZATION FOR THE FOLLOWING; CAREER RAPISTS, PSYCHOPATHS > (PROVEN TO BE GENETIC), This is not true, and here I need to ask you for some citations from the medical literature if you’re going to make this claim. There is a _significant_ environmental/behavioral factor at play here. > [@](#): > > CAREER VIOLENT CRIMINALS AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE > GENETIC FORMS OF SEVERE MENTAL RETARDATION. You are about 2 inches away, it appears, from including people with MD or MS, or other inheritable “defects.” Sorry, but you, and I, simply do not have the right to make these decisions for others, or, more significantly, to condemn the possible actions of people who haven’t even been **conceived** , for pete’s sake. > [@](#): > > YOU ARE A DIPSHIT. WE HAVE MILLIONS OF MILES OF LANDS NOT CONDUSIVE > TOWARDS HABITATION. Eh, sorry, no. The least populous states in the U.S. include Wyoming, Montana and Idaho, with plenty of usable, inhabitable land. And they are pretty big states, too. > [@](#): > > DROP IN ON INDIA AND TAKE A PEEK. There are a million other things going on here. Make some specific arguments, please. > [@](#): > > ``` > BESIDES, IT HAS REACHED A POINT WHERE ONE MAY NOT GO ALMOST ANYWHERE IN > THE STATES WHERE IT SEEMS TO BE SOLITARY AND DESERTED AND NOT FIND SIGNS > OF SOMEONE HAVING BEEN THERE BEFORE. USUALLY IN THE SHAPE OF EMPTY BEER > CANS. > > ``` So someone’s been camping. Big deal. What exactly is that supposed to prove? > [@](#): > > OUT POPULATION IS ALREADY PUTTING A STRAIN ON OUR ABILITY TO > ECONOMICALLY SUSTAIN IT. It really isn’t, you know. > [@](#): > > I GUESS YOU HAVEN’T OBSERVED THE HIGH PRICE OF > FOOD BECAUSE FARMERS HAVE FOUND GROWING IT TO BE COSTLY Bzzzzt! The “high price of food,” and I question the premise, if anything is due to both questionable government farm subsidy and crop insurance programs, and an increasing number of natural disasters which wipe out crops. > [@](#): > > AND THE > INCREASINGLY LOW AVERAGE WAGES WITH THE INCREASING RIFT BETWEEN THE > HAVES AND THE HAVE NOTS. I won’t argue with this, except to say that it’s really a better argument for forced sterilization of the rich and successful. > [@](#): > > PLUS, EXAMINE MEDICAL CARE. THOSE THAT HAVE, TO > PUT IT SIMPLY, LIVE. THOSE THAT CANNOT AFFORD IT, DIE. THAT USUALLY HAPPENS > WHEN THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE. You’re attempting to reduce a complicated argument on the health care industry and the insurance industry to some painfully naive one-liners, here. > [@](#): > > I know people who are mean and stupid and their kids > usually are. I am also aware of the high incidents of lower intelligence in children > because the parents had no pre-natal care, poor child rearing skills, allowed their kids > to consume lead paint or drink water from lead pipe plumbing in old houses that was all > they could afford to live in. So raise the standard of living. > [@](#): > > I know of fathers who > determinedly taught their kids to hate one race or another or who spent most of the > money on booze and drugs. This probably happens among rich and poor with equal frequency, really. > [@](#): > > A 2% population growth means the population doubles every 14 years. At current world > growth rates, before I am a grandfather there will be over thirty billion people on this > earth. Except, as it happens, birth and fertility rates are declining. > [@](#): > > ``` > C'MON DOWN HERE IN THE DIRT FOR A BIT BUD. > > ``` Been there, done that, got the fucking T-shirt. If you think I’m speaking from a position of privelege, wealth, or inherited assets, you’re just plain mistaken. > [@](#): > > I THINK I MIGHT HAVE A BIT MORE EXPERIENCE AND COMPREHENSION BACKING UP MY > DECISIONS AND OBSERVATIONS THAN YOU DO I seriously fucking doubt it. Beleive me, I know from poor, OK? * * * “Come on, Phonics Monkey–drum!” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 1999, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/24 "1999-11-21T21:41:00Z")
Ya know from poor,but ya don’t know jack. I didn’t take that out of context. You said retarded people could only get minimum wage jobs,so why let them be born,or correct me if thats not what you implied.If not,you sure misstated yourself.Find someone else on this board who completely agrees with you on this.I’m the one causing trouble?ha ha. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 1999, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/25 "1999-11-21T21:51:00Z")
Oops,sorry,the cut and paste got confusing there. Didn’t mean You,pl. ---
**Author:** ![Sake\_Samurai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sake\_Samurai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sake_Samurai)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 1999, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/26 "1999-11-21T23:06:00Z")
Just read the thread, orangecakes, and I must chime in with my opinion: I’m absolutely **against** paying crack-addicted females to get sterilized. Don’t like the idea at all. I’d vote against it if it ever makes it on the ballot. It is outright wrong! I will speak out against those who are engaged in this practice, for I believe it to be integrally irresponsible and morally reprehensible. I mean, why on God’s Green Earth would you _pay_ them? * * * Hell is Other People. ---
**Author:** ![MarkSerlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@MarkSerlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarkSerlin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 1999, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/27 "1999-11-22T03:40:00Z")
ORANGECAKES: The statement about minimum wage jobs that I used; I also know of mentally retarded parents who had retarded children and none ever rose above minimum wage jobs or worse. * * * YOUR OBSERVATION: I didn’t take that out of context. You said retarded people could only get minimum wage jobs, so why let them be born, or correct me if that’s not what you implied. If not, you sure misstated yourself. * * * ## Conclusion: You can’t read worth shit or else you enjoy starting trouble. I believe I wrote ‘I KNOW OF,’ which means that I personally know about a family of mentally retarded people. Nowhere was there any statement that all mentally retarded people were included. Mark “Think of it as Evolution in action.” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 1999, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/28 "1999-11-22T14:37:00Z")
Mark, no I never start trouble. But tell me whats wrong with a retarded person having a minimum wage job? You made it sound like some people can’t be happy unless they’re making 40k a year. And I never said I was for or against sterilization of crack moms,which is what this thread was about. I won’t argue with you,pl is much better at that (and successful) than myself. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 1999, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/29 "1999-11-22T14:40:00Z")
Mark,so what do you think of retarded people who are women and overweight? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MarkSerlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@MarkSerlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarkSerlin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 1999, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/30 "1999-11-22T17:57:00Z")
ORANGECAKES: I suppose nothing is wrong with retarded people making minimum wage, but the message was to point out that, with VERY rare exceptions, they could never go any further. Most do not make any money at all, having to be cared for by their parents or the state. Retarded women who are also fat? Mandatory sterilization. (I wonder why it is that the majority of the fat women I have encountered are usually belligerent, mouthy or smart-asses – or on the Jerry Springer and Rikki Lake show?) * * * Mark “Think of it as Evolution in action.” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 1999, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/31 "1999-11-23T06:23:00Z")
Almost funny there Mark.(was your mum overweight?) Ask any parent who has a retarded or handicapped child,whether they regret it,or whether they consider their child to be a blessing? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 1999, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/32 "1999-11-22T19:18:00Z")
orangecakes, you ever shop at Nature’s Bin over on Sloane and West Clifton? Part of their mission is to work with developmentally disabled adults and older teens in job training programs. They have a great placement rate, getting them jobs eventually at retail/grocery establishments around the county. I bet the self-esteem that is produced by helping them get jobs and support themselves is immeasurable. * * * “Come on, Phonics Monkey–drum!” ---
**Author:** ![Sake\_Samurai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sake\_Samurai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sake_Samurai)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 1999, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/33 "1999-11-22T21:15:00Z")
I think the issue here is productivity. If you do not bring religion into the picture, all we are left with after we die is our contribution to our family, friends and society. There are those who reason nonproductive members of society are a drain and should be ignored or eliminated. Then there are those who see the intrinsic worth of every single individual and would dig deeply into the public coffers to keep the downtrodden and mentally deficient alive and thriving, full of self esteem and happy thoughts. Let’s take a moment to observe other species and how they treat their nonproductive members: the mentally retarded bear that thinks honey comes from street lamps; the fire ant who carries perfectly good food out of the hill and throws it away; the lioness who refuses to help hunt antelope for the cubs. They are not placed in social programs, wherein the other animals chip in to keep their self-esteem up. They are all either ostracized or killed. Who decides who is productive, you ask? Me? No, not me nor anyone. No one needs decide who is productive. It will become evident as the nonproductive starve to death and die. All that is required is that the public does not try and “save” them. If a private party wishes to help out - god bless! I’m not saying we round 'em up and kill 'em off. There are many retarded people who can hold decent jobs and show up on time every day, performing quite well. Their loved ones should bear the responsibility of helping them, not the State. The OP is not about people who are mentally deficient, but are willingly harming society. They are a drain. No mercy should be shown. * * * Hell is Other People. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 1999, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/34 "1999-11-23T01:29:00Z")
So the same person who vociferously argues that all drugs should be legalized also argues that drug addicts should be permitted to starve to death because they cause enormous damage to society. Huh. Fancy that. Guess you want to see a lot more of that sort of thing, do you? * * * “Come on, Phonics Monkey–drum!” ---
**Author:** ![MarkSerlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@MarkSerlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarkSerlin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 1999, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/35 "1999-11-23T05:18:00Z")
I have no doubt that the majority of the parents of a mentally retarded child see them as a blessing. I also have no doubt that there are many who cannot afford the cost to provide them with the special education, therapy or living conditions so many require, so must rely on state operated programs. I, for one, have no major problem with these programs but I do consider the potential for seriously and genetically retarded people reproducing retarded children. Then, those children go the state dole. Granted, they can get jobs and those with higher cognitive functions can gain self esteem and some can gain independence, but many, many cannot. In my opinion, sterilization is an option to be seriously considered. Why should we support those offspring who will never fully fit into society, or rather, allow them to produce more? If a gene is ever located which produces the much hated pedophile, one can bet the farm that if it becomes possible to stop such people from being born or spreading the gene that the public will clamor for enforced sterilization. Years ago, blood tests were required before marriage because of RH blood factors. If the RH factors did not match, the child born to the union risked being born with blood which could kill it unless given a prompt, full blood supply transfusion. There was also the great possibility of mental and physical deformities and retardation. Marriage license were not given to such people with conflicting RH factors. From what I understand, no blood test is required in many areas now. Currently, there are a great many physically and mentally damaged children being born to drug addicted women, who will require enormous amounts of money from the government to just survive and many will never lead a normal life. So, I agree with sterilization of the mothers because they will continue to produce defective children which will have little positive impact on society as a whole and many will just be a steady drain. Currently, genetics is reaching the level where an expectant mother can be informed if her unborn child is carrying a defective gene and what the potential for it to be retarded or physically deformed is. Some genetic diseases don’t show up for years after birth but when they do, the cost of therapy is enormous and in many instances just prolongs the inevitable death for a little longer. Options are being given to parents to abort the child and parents are starting to do so. There is, of course, some controversy over this, but I actually consider it for the best. In the past, many, many parents have had to struggle to support a mentally and seriously birth disabled child. Marriages have broken up, finances have been drained, even normal sibling in the family have suffered. Very often the child never can live a normal life span and there are many, many instances where they just get sicker and sicker and die what I consider to be a slow and lingering death. So, if there is the potential to prevent the birth of such children, would this not be better for the familles? Plus, if retarded people show major indications of producing retarded children, why should they be allowed to do so considering the massive financial drain on them and the state resources? Just because everyone has the right to breed? Children, defective ones, might be cherished by the familles, but why should everyone else have to pay for their support and well being, especially if it was known before birth that they would never be even close to normal? If a person is going to pop out kids, defective or not, but not be able to take care of them, why should they be allowed to breed? Why should it become the responsibility of others to pay for the care and treatment of children who’s parents were in a group with an enormously high potential for producing mental or physical defectives? Years ago, when no one knew for sure why such children were coming along, it was different, but now we know. Some people, in my opinion, should be sterilized, including some guys. Men, who have an inherited genetic defect have deliberately gone out to father children, KNOWING that the chances of their offspring developing the disease was nearly 100%. (Some guys I’ve run into seem to consider having as many kids by as many different women as possible to be the sign of a REAL man – even though they can’t support them. The way I look at it, guys with such an attitude need to be nipped whether or not they have the potential to spread any defective genetic material.) * * * Mark “Think of it as Evolution in action.” ---
**Author:** ![Sake\_Samurai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sake\_Samurai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sake_Samurai)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 1999, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/36 "1999-11-23T05:29:00Z")
Again, pld, logic has gotten the better of you! Keep your eye out - it’s a wirey bastard! Every citizen should have the right to ingest pharmacological substances without the threat of criminal proceedings, I hold this to be true. The problem arises when that right is abused and it makes surface the deeper problems of the soul and addiction, self-hatred and depression begin to reign. Drugs often have nothing to do with this. I’m not worrying about all of this, though - the addicted and retarded can rest easy knowing that in this cruel insensitive world, good 'ol Phil is lurking around the corner ready to give them a great big bear hug to improve their self-esteem and pull them from the morass of wretchedness and degradation. You are a social program unto yourself. * * * Hell is Other People. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 1999, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/37 "1999-11-23T12:50:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not worrying about all of this, though - the addicted and retarded can rest easy knowing that in this cruel insensitive world, good 'ol Phil is lurking around the corner ready to give them a great big bear hug to improve their self-esteem and pull them from the morass of wretchedness and degradation. Beats the hell out of genocide. I assume that, should you be cursed with a retarded child, you’ll have it forcibly sterilized and maybe let it starve to death? * * * “Come on, Phonics Monkey–drum!” ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 1999, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/38 "1999-11-23T12:52:00Z")
Oh, and, logically, since we can be 100% certain that the legalization of drugs will lead to at least a temporary, if not a permanent, increase in the use of those drugs, then it logically follows that you are in favor of increased drug addiction, the very thing you claim is a drain on society. If A leads to B, then if you say A, you logically MUST say B. * * * “Come on, Phonics Monkey–drum!” ---
**Author:** ![MarkSerlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@MarkSerlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarkSerlin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 1999, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/39 "1999-11-23T16:28:00Z")
Legalized drugs / drug addiction / paid sterilization of addicts. Sounds logical to me. I don’t recall the name of the country (Belgium I think) but they legalized drugs years ago. Naturally, they have a massive influx of people from other countries going there to buy them. They also wound up with a really massive addiction problem followed by an increased crime level. Shortly after they developed a massive street person problem as consumers of the legalized drugs became addicted and could no longer work. As can be expected, they also developed a massive disease problem from drug related and spread diseases. Now, they are pouring funds into rehabilitation programs. I think that’s a pretty good example for NOT legalizing drugs – aside from pot, but then, no one has yet done any testing or research into the massive amount of residue pot leaves behind. Much more than tobacco. * * * Mark “Think of it as Evolution in action.” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 1999, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976/40 "1999-11-24T06:55:00Z")
Mark,I doubt they are going to find a gene for pedophilism or some such. Yes pl,been there,bought healthy cereal. It Is a great program. Retarded people don’t get on message boards and make stupid statements either… * * * The poster beneath me is not wearing pants! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paid-sterilization/16976.md?page=3)