# Pain vs shame: Reality in Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469 "2004-05-04T15:15:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/41 "2004-05-05T21:57:20Z")
And when I say everybody, I mean, well, all men, actually, not really the women, who apparently already get it, but all men in Iraq, & in this country, too. You, me, & Rummy, too! Yeah, try feeling like a woman, maybe you’ll grow some empathy! grrrrr… OK, that’s hardly the conservative, cautious, & wise response. Take away a man’s pride & you may as well geld him, which means you may as well shoot him, really. But the thing is, I find it funny that this whole thing sets people off. Oh, reducing cities to rubble & blowing up cars is all right, but they humiliated men & took naked pictures, like they were–_girls!_ Yep, & I’d do it again! ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/42 "2004-05-05T22:28:11Z")
foolsguinea Maybe you could take the effort to read my clarifying post. Next maybe you could take the effort to get your brain to understand that every culture is different and that because there are some invading US’ers running around in Iraq, this does not mean that Iraqis are erradicated together with their culture, traditions and religion and have become the slaves of the invadors who can shove their un-values down the Iraqi throats. Once your get an understanding of this important principle needed to be able to look at the world as the world in fact _is_, you could maybe take a good look at those pictures. Then come back to say again that nothing is wrong with the actions they are the silent witness off. That shall then be more then enough to convince me that you are a devoted follower The Great New Iskander in his truly original ideas expressed in multiple posts regarding this issue. And by the way: it is the occupyer in Iraq who blowed up cities and people. If their was no occupation going on, their would not be anything blowed up. I would like to see your reaction if - God forbid - one of the US Heros gets now in the hands of some of the Iraqis you despise that mutch and receives a treatment that is even a little bit comparable as what the US Heros did in that prison (and as is reported since months by AI as going in Iraq). I can assure you that if I was in the place of one of these Iraqis, that the lunatical arrogant filthy subhuman scum that you obviously see as Great US Heros would not laugh anymore when then a picture was taken the moment I could get my hands on them. In the meantime I wish you sweat dreams of naked Iraqi men and Glorious US Heros rejoicing in their innocent sadistic delirium. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/43 "2004-05-05T22:48:38Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > …don’t tell anyone to… This place is so much worse than AbuGhraib with US jail guards. Tear me from limb to limb and feed me to rabid possums, but don’t subject me to GD moderators abuse! ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/44 "2004-05-06T03:39:45Z")
Having read this whole thread all I can say is- Yawn… This whole so-called ‘scandal’ (the treatment of a handfull of Iraqi prisoners) is the biggest non-issue in quite a while. Its not indicative of anything. It doesn’t represent the American presence in Iraq as a whole. Its a few dozen guys acting like jackasses. And because they’re subject to American military law they’ll be punished for it. But _ **absolutely nothing** _ I’ve seen or read about constitutes **torture**. Over-zealous harassment and humiliation, but not torture. No way, no how. And the quote from the one Iraqi who, “prefered being beaten by Saddam to standing naked in front of women”? Yawn again. Maybe he or his children might someday crawl out of the middle ages and realize that women aren’t chattle. And that occupation by a non-arab but civilized culture **IS** better than being ruled by a sadistic arab dictator. But probably not… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/45 "2004-05-06T03:59:37Z")
And you know what? They’re not even grateful! ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/46 "2004-05-06T04:27:21Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > But _ **absolutely nothing** _ I’ve seen or read about constitutes **torture**. Over-zealous harassment and humiliation, but not torture. No way, no how. What is your definition of torture? > [@](#): > > And the quote from the one Iraqi who, “prefered being beaten by Saddam to standing naked in front of women”? Yawn again. Maybe he or his children might someday crawl out of the middle ages and realize that women aren’t chattle. Are you saying what _they_ feel is irrelevant, and what matters is what _we think they should feel_ under the circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/47 "2004-05-06T04:34:30Z")
> [@](#): > > According to this story: > [http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040502/D82ANREO1.html](http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040502/D82ANREO1.html) a Mr Shweiri claims he preferred being electrocuted, beaten and being hung from the ceiling by Saddam Hussein’s security forces to having to strip naked for a search by US troops. > I know people have different modesties but can this really be true? I’m a bit surprised that nobody so far has mentioned that what we in the West might consider absurdly over-the-top hyperbole is, in my experience at least, generally considered acceptable as a means of stressing a point in Middle Eastern cultures. I’ve had a large number of such experiences myself. Consider such things as Saddam referring to the ridiculously lopsided first US-Iraqi war as “the mother of all battles” or, indeed, some of the statements in other threads by our esteemed colleague **Aldebaran** (although in this one at least, he’s practically been a pussycat). In other words, Mr. Swieri probably would not actually prefer to be electrocuted, beaten or hung from the ceiling by anyone at all, but was simply trying to show that he did not consider the behavior of the US troops responsible to be any less reprehensible. As do I, in case that’s not clear. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/48 "2004-05-06T05:04:09Z")
> [@](#): > > **Hail Ants** : But absolutely nothing I’ve seen or read about constitutes torture. Over-zealous harassment and humiliation, but not torture. No way, no how. Not even the two murders that have been established? They’ve been discussed all day on the news and there are on-going investigations into the deaths of over twenty others who have died in captivity. [ ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/49 "2004-05-06T07:14:07Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > But _ **absolutely nothing** _ I’ve seen or read about constitutes **torture**. Over-zealous harassment and humiliation, but not torture. No way, no how. Ah. “Compassionate conservatism” rears its head again. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/50 "2004-05-06T12:57:39Z")
**Hail Ants** From MSNBC’s copy of the Taguba report > [@the Taguba report](#): > > 1. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26): > > **a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;** > > **b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;** > > c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees; > > **d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;** > > e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape; > > f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; > > \*\*g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick. \*\* > > h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee. Above bolding mine. I am no human rights expert, but beating, sodomy with various objects and threatening with death all fall within the range of torture. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/51 "2004-05-06T12:59:19Z")
Sorry, forgot the link: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/52 "2004-05-06T13:16:30Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Certainly. It is alien to American society, but ME culture is an entirely different beast. What shocks and surprises them may seem (relatively) mundane to us, and vice versa. In America, people get electrocuted, beaten, and hung from the ceiling for sexual arousal O\_o To them, being nekkid in public is not so much a matter of “modesty” as it is a severe cultural insult. I can’t quite think of a real equivalent for Americans, since we have a much more liberal culture. One of my problems in understanding the reactions of Middle Easterners to the torture at Abu Gharab is their tendency to ramp up their responses. “I burn with the fury of a thousand suns” apparently means, “I am mildly annoyed.” “I curse you and all of your family unto the nth generation and will devote the rest of my life to hunting you down, torturing and killing you,” apparently means, “Dude!” So when I hear Middle Easterners talking about the nakedness being “worse than being hung from the ceiling and electrocuted” I tend to think it means, “It’s something to do on a rainy day.” I do not mean to belittle the feelings of Middle Easterners, just the way they express their feelings and the way EVERYTHING they say is so clearly calculated wrt to its effect on the listener makes it very hard to accept anything they say at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/53 "2004-05-06T13:23:42Z")
> [@marky33](#): > > If anyone here would like to refer to the OP, the gentleman in question was told to strip for a search and was naked for 15 mins. No broomhandles, no photos. > > I’m asking whether it really is possible for someone to dread that, being “treated like a woman”, more than chronic physical torture involving electrocution, beatings and being hung from the ceiling. > It may well be the case but I am yet to be convinced. It makes you wonder how the Iraqis treat their women. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/54 "2004-05-06T13:31:25Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > People don’t seem to get the idea that not the whole world likes to have nudity slapped around your ears and forced upon you as if it is nothing special at all. > > Salaam. A So, Islamic men are sexist and have hangups about nudity. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/55 "2004-05-06T13:57:29Z")
Gads. Are we all this worked up because we’re supposed to be the “good guys?” I mean, absolutely the treatment of the prisoners was unconsionable…BUT… WHERE WAS THE F\*\*KING OUTRAGE WHEN THEY TORTURED, KILLED, and MUTILATED (BURNED TO NON-RECOGNITION) **AMERICAN CITIZENS** just TWO WEEKS AGO?? Where the hell is the balance, folks?? We can get worked up about abuses to Iraqis, but not to abuses to Americans? Did the abuse to the Americans get a big “meh” because we EXPECT the Iraqis to act this way? If so, then shame on us…and shame on them for making us believe that they would act that way as a “matter of course.”… …and again, I’ll go on record - I DO NOT APPROVE of the abuses by American soldiers…it’s unacceptable because we ARE supposed to be “better than that.” But shouldn’t we expect the same of the Iraqis? Aren’t they supposed to be “better than that,” too? Are they not CAPABLE of being better than that? I’m starting to wonder… ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/56 "2004-05-06T14:12:56Z")
> [@DirkGntly](#): > > WHERE WAS THE F\*\*KING OUTRAGE WHEN THEY TORTURED, KILLED, and MUTILATED (BURNED TO NON-RECOGNITION) **AMERICAN CITIZENS** just TWO WEEKS AGO?? Weren’t those mercenaries dead at the time? I wouldn’t expect to much Iraqi bitching when some Iraqi patriots kills some US invaders, private or government. Especially since the bloodshed of Iraqi innocents caused by said invaders rivals that of Al Quaeda and the reasons for invading were all lies. Also, I believe that the majority of clerics spoke out against the mutilating of the dead. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469/57 "2004-05-06T14:30:55Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So, Islamic men are sexist and have hangups about nudity. Got it. Unlike, say, Christian men? Don’t tell me devout Christians - particularly of a few generations ago, weren’t sexist or didn’t have a thing about nudity? (Or pretty much any other religion) Things have advanced in the West (and gone backwards IMO in the Arab world) - but think how such things would have been viewed in your Great-Grandfather’s day to get some perspective. On the other hand, a quick Google on “Honor killing” or “Honour killing” will give an insight into how much _some_ in the Islamic world value “honour” over life itself (or at least female life) - to a degree I can’t get my own head round > [@](#): > > I do not mean to belittle the feelings of Middle Easterners, just the way they express their feelings and the way EVERYTHING they say is so clearly calculated wrt to its effect on the listener makes it very hard to accept anything they say at face value. Fair point, but this guy has been pissed off to some degree - I would hope that the US military had taken advice from experts on the best way to deal with local sensibilities, but given the lack of planning in other areas I really doubt it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pain-vs-shame-reality-in-iraq/243469.md?page=2)