# Paint a picture of McCain without the Bush brush **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738 "2008-07-08T19:26:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/1 "2008-07-08T19:26:52Z")
As a progressive Republican, I completely understand the vitriol over GWB. Yes, most of it is over the top (e.g. the famous photo of his holding a book upside down was photoshopped) but the truth is that we are wandering around Iraq like outpatients without any clear definition of success and no exit strategy. The economy is a shambles and like his father, GW’s plan is to ignore the problems until they go away. Invariably, discussion about McCain’s run for the presidency runs into an anti-Bush rant. **McCain is not Bush!** For example, McCain is a federalist while George “NCLB” Bush clearly is not. For those anti-McCains, tell me why without making ad hominum attacks on the President. Of course, McCain’s votes/comment on Iraqi War Redux are fair game as well as his economic plan. If possible, contrast it with Obama’s votes/views/plans/etc. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/2 "2008-07-08T19:34:47Z")
McCain is pro Iraq war. He further indicates he can see going after Iran. That is a non starter. The war is the biggest mistake we have made in a long time. it must be stopped as soon as possible. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/3 "2008-07-08T19:37:51Z")
What economic plan? There is no such plan. There are grand promises, there is no plan. If you want to debate the plan, you will have to provide us with information that McCain has not provided. The gas tax “holiday”? Puh-leeeeze! And so far as McCain policies are an extension of Bush policies, the derision and calumny is wholly justified. Where do you see a radical departure? Maybe if I left, but I’m not… ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/4 "2008-07-08T19:51:22Z")
A picture of McCain painted without the Bush Brush would look about like Andy Rooney. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/5 "2008-07-08T20:08:42Z")
You mean pre-GWB’s election? Goldwater conservative, integrity wrt politics pretty darn good, personal life not so much but that’s his business. Willing to buck Republicans when convinced it’s right. I would never have voted for him unless the opponent in question was absolutely terrible, but at least I would have respected him. Heck, I still respect him more than Bush! The problem is, he deliberately set out to paint himself with the Bush brush. He’s been courting the far right since 2004. And now that he’s got the nomination, he’s trying to distance himself from Bush. Unfortunately, these are contradictory positions, so it’s really not working all that well. Of course, Obama is in a somewhat analagous situation. He didn’t _try_ to present himself as far to the left, but I think he _allowed_ himself to be presented as further to the left than he actually is prior to winning the nomination. Now he’s setting things straight because it’s to his advantage to do so, and the left is upset. But let’s face it. Neither the right nor the left really have anywhere else to go. McCain’s big problem is going to be getting the big Christian right turnout that Bush and Reagan got. I suspect Obama will still get a big turnout because of his oratorical skills and because there is a lot of anger toward Bush and the Republicans, and on most of the policies for which there is anger, McCain is in agreement with them. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/6 "2008-07-08T20:10:31Z")
[QUOTE=Saint Cad] Invariably, discussion about McCain’s run for the presidency runs into an anti-Bush rant. **McCain is not Bush!** For example, McCain is a federalist while George “NCLB” Bush clearly is not. For those anti-McCains, tell me why without making ad hominum attacks on the President. [/QUOTE] McCain is not Bush but inexplicably McCain has reversed course and decided to support many Bush policies. See below: > [@](#): > > President Bush is increasingly confident that John McCain, as the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, will be an effective defender of the major Bush policies such as cutting taxes, fighting terrorism, and winning the Iraq war, according to White House aides. > > SOURCE: [http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/politics/2008/02/15/backing-mccain-and-hitting-the-money-circuit.html](http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/politics/2008/02/15/backing-mccain-and-hitting-the-money-circuit.html) > [@](#): > > ``` > STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me bring Senator Graham back in on this because you brought up two. You said the tax policy and the health care policy were essentially, Senator Graham, John McCain is calling for an extension or maybe enhancement of the Bush policies. > > GRAHAM: Yeah, absolutely. > > ``` > > SOURCE: [http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/08/graham-mccain-bush/](http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/08/graham-mccain-bush/) > [@](#): > > The all-but-certain Republican presidential nominee cast himself as a defender of the Bush tax cuts he voted against, but added caveats to a “no new taxes” vow he made on a Sunday television talk show two weeks ago. > > On Social Security, the Arizona senator says he still backs a system of private retirement accounts that President Bush pushed unsuccessfully, and disowned details of a Social Security proposal on his campaign Web site. > > SOURCE: [http://online.wsj.com/article\_print/SB120451614688707083.html](http://online.wsj.com/article_print/SB120451614688707083.html) > [@](#): > > Last week, the Senate brought the Intelligence Authorization Bill — which contained a provision banning waterboarding — to the floor for a vote. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), an outspoken waterboarding critic, voted against the bill. > > \ > > But the vote was not “in keeping” with McCain’s unclear record on torture; in the past, McCain called waterboarding a “terrible and odious practice” that “should never be condoned in the U.S.” > > McCain is trying to have it both ways. He claims the CIA should not use “cruel” or “unusual” interrogations, but he is defending Bush’s veto, a clear approval of waterboarding. > > SOURCE: [http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/20/mccain-torture-veto/](http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/20/mccain-torture-veto/) > [@](#): > > As he tries to woo independent voters, Sen. John McCain is relying on his image as a maverick, making it clear he’s no President Bush. > > But the timing of Bush’s support for offshore oil drilling this week may spell trouble for McCain’s efforts to distance himself from the embattled White House. > > \ > > The senator from Arizona outlined an energy plan that would include lifting the ban on offshore drilling for oil, a reversal of his position during his 2000 campaign. > > SOURCE: [Ties to Bush on offshore drilling may hurt McCain this fall - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/19/bush.mccain.energy/) I’m sure I could come up with more (Guantanamo, abortion, same sex marriages, etc.). I am more curious where McCain overtly rejects Bush policies because I am hard pressed to think of any. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/7 "2008-07-08T20:42:11Z")
McCain is willing to continue in Iraq and has saber-rattled towards Iran. McCain has promised to nominate more Scalia/Roberts/Alitos to the SCotUS and believes its the federal government’s duty to assist private groups in banning abortion on the state level. McCain opposes universal health care. McCain has backed off of his own once admirable stance on immigration. I could go on but those four are enough for me not to vote for the man. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/8 "2008-07-08T20:58:37Z")
McCain will [balance the federal budget in either four or eight years.](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/07/mccain-reverts-to-balanced-budget-pledge/?hp) ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/9 "2008-07-09T00:34:03Z")
Relatedly, even if McCain were clearly and strongly distancing himself from Bush in all ways, I feel that it’s important that the Republican party, which was complicit with the disaster that was the Bush administration, pay a price. They, as a group, should not be able to spend 8 years backing their Great Leader and smearing anyone who disagreed with them, and then immediately turn around and say “ok, well, that’s done. He kinda sucked. Our bad. Now, who’s going to vote for our new candidate for president?”. In the future, I want people of either party to be very aware that when you run a nimrod for president and viciously and angrily back him at all costs and swiftboat his opponents, the American people will finally wake up and see what you have done… and then you will be out of power for a long time. Granted, it’s pretty hard for me (a liberal) to be objective about this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/10 "2008-07-09T03:40:49Z")
Ok, [here’s a picture](http://vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1566) for you. > [@](#): > > What happens when John McCain fields a question at a town hall meeting that isn’t scripted as usual? Well, he lies of course. > > > [@](#): > > > > MCCAIN: I’ve received every award from every major veteran’s organization in America. I received every organization in America their awards. … The reason why I have a perfect voting record from organizations like the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the American Legion and all the other veterans service organizations is because of my support of them. […] > > > > VETERAN: You do not have a perfect voting record by the DAV and the VFW. That’s where these votes were recorded. These votes were proposals by your colleagues in the Senate to increase health care of the VA in 2003, 4, 5, and 6 for troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. And you voted against those proposals. […] > > > > MCCAIN: I’ve been endorsed in every election by every veterans organization that do that, I’ve been supported by them, and I’ve received their highest awards from all of those organizations. So I guess they don’t know something you know. > > –more at source. includes video– And when you watch the above-linked video, note how downright rude he was to the gentleman – the veteran – who asked him that question and called him on his lie. Is that how you want our President conducting business and international relations with other heads of state? Then of course there’s his opinion on whether or not we support the claimed goals of our presence in Iraq, or whether it’s ever advisable to, as he calls it, to “cut and run,” when those same goals are being carried out by a Democratic President, or being advocated by his opponent in the Presidential race. > [@](#): > > **John McCain on Somalia** : "The American people do not support the goals of nation-building, peace-making, law and order, and certainly not warlord hunting. . . For us to get into nation-building, law and order, etc., I think is a tragic and terrible mistake. Now is the time to get out of Somalia as rapidly and as promptly and as safely as possible.” > [@](#): > > **John McCain on Haiti** : “The right course of action is to make preparations as quickly as possible to bring our people home. . . This does not mean as soon as order is restored to Haiti. It doesn’t mean as soon as democracy is flourishing in Haiti. It doesn’t mean as soon as we have established a viable nation in Haiti. “As soon as possible” means as soon we can get out of Haiti without losing any American lives. . . It is my view and I want to make it clear, and I think the majority of the American people’s view that “As soon as possible” means “As soon as possible”, exactly what those words say. The Haitians were to police themselves. . .” Listen to it right from the horse’s mouth, as spoken on the Senate floor, at this [News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines - AOL.com](http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/04/13/john-mccains-enormous-hypocrisy-on-the-war/) Of course, when he isn’t changing his positions, sometimes he doesn’t even know what his position even _is_. > [@](#): > > . . . > > Q: “So no contraception, no counseling on contraception. Just abstinence. Do you think contraceptives help stop the spread of HIV?” > > Mr. McCain: (Long pause) “You’ve stumped me.” > > Q: “I mean, I think you’d probably agree it probably does help stop it?” > > Mr. McCain: (Laughs) “Are we on the Straight Talk express? I’m not informed enough on it. Let me find out. You know, I’m sure I’ve taken a position on it on the past. I have to find out what my position was. Brian, would you find out what my position is on contraception – I’m sure I’m opposed to government spending on it, I’m sure I support the president’s policies on it.” > > . . . > > [Link](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/03/16/mccain-stumbles-on-hiv-prevention/) I’m not sure why anyone would even consider voting for someone to manage and oversee the economy of the entire country, who has no problem admitting, [“The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should”](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/opinion/14krugman.html?_r=1&oref=slogin). That’s freaking scary! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/11 "2008-07-09T23:03:06Z")
I blame McCain for getting the alternative lyrics to “Barbara Ann” stuck in my head: “Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran,” & repeat. Apparently he hums this. It’s probably just because it’s catchy, but who knows? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/12 "2008-07-09T23:08:01Z")
Actually, for me, it’s not about McCain or Bush as individuals. It’s about party; it’s about patronage in executive & judicial appointments, it’s about the party’s track record. IMO, Mac is better than much of his party on, say, immigration. (I would say the same about Bush, perhaps without the, “say,” interpolated.) He offers hope of a GOP that gets away from the bad antics of DeLay & co. But do I want 12 consecutive years of GOP judicial appointments? Nah, I’ll vote for a Democrat in the name of balance. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/13 "2008-07-09T23:25:34Z")
I’ll add one more, just because it hasn’t been mentioned yet: [McCain Supports Efforts to Ban Gay Marriage](http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/06/27/mccain-supports-efforts-to-ban-gay-marriage.html) Meanwhile [Obama Opposes Gay Marriage Ban](http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/07/02/obama_opposes_gay_marriage_ban.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/14 "2008-07-10T17:33:18Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] Of course, when he isn’t changing his positions, sometimes he doesn’t even know what his position even _is_. [/QUOTE] So first we have him not knowing whether he even has a position on contraceptives, then, the other day, when he was [joking about killing Iranians with cigarettes](http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/mccain_jokes_about_killing_ira.php) (har har har) :rolleyes:, he tells the reporter he’s going to have to look into the export exception including medical and agricultural products because **it’s the first time he’s ever heard of that** , in spite of the fact that he’s the one who says we should be sanctioning exports to them as a means of exerting our badass power over them. Now he doesn’t remember how he voted, doesn’t know what his position is, and isn’t “informed” enough to answer a simple question about health insurance companies covering viagra and not birth control. > [@](#): > > Q: Earlier this week Carly Fiorina was meeting with a bunch of reporters and talked about it being unfair that insurance companies cover Viagra but not birth control. And - > > McCain: I certainly do not want to discuss that issue. (uneasy laughter) > > Q: But apparently you’ve voted against (McCain laughter continues) > > McCain: I don’t know what I voted - > > Q: Voted against coverage of birth control, forcing health insurance companies to cover birth control in the past. Is that still your position? > > McCain: I’ll look at my voting record on it, but I have, uh, (5 second pause) , I don’t recall the vote right now. But I’ll be glad to look at it and get back to you as to why, I don’t - > > Q: I guess her statement was that it was unfair that health insurance companies cover Viagra but not birth control. Do you have an opinion on that? > > McCain: (after 8 second pause) I don’t know enough about it to give you an informed answer because I don’t recall the vote, I’ve cast thousands of votes in the Senate. I will respond to - it’s a, it’s a (nervous) [Link with video](http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/09/mccain-gets-nervous-when-asked-about-his-opposition-to-insurance-provided-birth-control/). It’s utterly offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/15 "2008-07-10T17:47:45Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] It’s utterly offensive. [/QUOTE] It’s utterly Bush[sup]2[/sup]. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/16 "2008-07-10T17:56:40Z")
OT a bit, but what is this bs with the U.S. not talking directly with Iran at all, everything going through the Europeans? What kind of chest-thumping power-game is that - we’re too far above them to talk to them? I’m not suggesting that we don’t include the Europeans in our talks. I just suggest that we _join_ the Europeans in “our” talks. Or am I misunderstanding the situation? ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/17 "2008-07-10T20:34:57Z")
This independent voter’s perspective: Social: He does not consider women’s issues, health issues (stem cells), or scientific issues to be a priority. When questioned directly, it’s clear he isn’t literate on the subjects. Big red flag for me. Budget: As a republican he simply has no credibility. Fool me fourthce (Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2) shame on me. Foreign policy: More cowboy sabre rattling, mixed with protectionism. Instead, I’d like to see the world start to smile at the work “American” again instead of roll their eyes. Age: Bluntly, it appears that age is already slowing him down. I expect that he will be a figurehead administration with unpredictable underlings running the show. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/18 "2008-07-11T00:52:52Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] I’m not sure why anyone would even consider voting for someone to manage and oversee the economy of the entire country, who has no problem admitting, [“The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should”](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/opinion/14krugman.html?_r=1&oref=slogin). That’s freaking scary! [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: No, it’s not. I’d _ **much** _ rather he admitted it, than that he thought he knew everything. Ever hear of the Dunning-Kruger effect? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/19 "2008-07-11T00:58:19Z")
Well I’d _ **much** _ rather elect a president who has a fundamental understanding of economics. Nice use of the rolleyes smiley at me, though. That’s conducive to meaningful debate. Mmmhmmm. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/20 "2008-07-11T19:34:20Z")
The rolleyes was at your “freaking scary.” I’m already planning to vote for your guy, but that doesn’t mean I won’t call you on overstatements & misrepresentation. I would prefer a good grounding in geography as well as economics for the President. But we already know that the American people don’t vote for economists & political geographers, preferring war heroes & other jocks. So if it’s freaking scary, then let’s apply that to the system of _how we choose candidates._ Your candidate _doesn’t admit_ that he’s not an economist. Mac _does._ Big giant point to Mac. [Dunning-Kruger effect.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect) Read it. Know it. Live it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738.md?page=2)