# Paint a picture of McCain without the Bush brush **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738 "2008-07-08T19:26:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/21 "2008-07-12T01:37:58Z")
But he just said he never said that, Fools. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/22 "2008-07-12T03:38:55Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] But he just said he never said that, Fools. [/QUOTE] Are you serious? Because there are certainly plenty of film clips running around showing that he said just that. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/23 "2008-07-12T04:41:01Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Are you serious? Because there are certainly plenty of film clips running around showing that he said just that. [/QUOTE] Stop that nonsense! I think you are talking down to white people. I want to cut your nuts off! ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/24 "2008-07-12T04:51:49Z")
Good luck with that (I’m female)! By the way, apparently he told a Pittsburgh morning show that he gave up the name of the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive line-up to his VC interrogators when being tortured. Unfortunately, in his book, it had been the Green Bay Packer offensive lineup, much more likely as the Packers were champs, and at that time, the Steeler defense apparently completely sucked. Straight Talk Express. Right. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/25 "2008-07-12T05:15:04Z")
I do feel like I overstated it slightly. But if Barry wants to claim the economics issue, I hope he has some actual grounding in economics to point to. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/26 "2008-07-12T12:11:41Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] I do feel like I overstated it slightly. But if Barry wants to claim the economics issue, I hope he has some actual grounding in economics to point to. [/QUOTE] Mr. Obama dose have some [experience](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92337754) working in finance. Now, I don’t want him to go around claiming he’s an economics expert (nor do I believe he’s done so), but I do think this counts as some “actual grounding in economics to point to.” [QUOTE=From the link] We definitely learned our ABCs of the financial markets," said Beth Noymer Levine. She was hired shortly before Obama and reported to the same boss. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/27 "2008-07-12T16:59:15Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Are you serious? Because there are certainly plenty of film clips running around showing that he said just that. [/QUOTE] > **[McCain Denies Saying He Doesn't Know Much About Economics](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mccain-denies-saying-he-d_n_110450)** > > McCain Denies Saying He Doesn't Know Much About Economics Yes. Yes, I am serious. Johnny, Johnny, Johnny. What has George Bush _done_ to you? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/28 "2008-07-12T17:05:23Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] The rolleyes was at your “freaking scary.” I’m already planning to vote for your guy, but that doesn’t mean I won’t call you on overstatements & misrepresentation. [/quote] What, pray tell, did I misrepresent? And you’re “calling me” on overstating my disdain for a man who admits to not knowing “as much as [he] **should** ” about economics, but wants us to elect him to be in control of the entire United States economy? Even he acknowledges that he **should** know more than he does. If he **should** know more, and **doesn’t** know what he **should** , how on earth can someone finding that frightening be “overstated”? It’s a legitimate opinion based on stated facts by the candidate himself. It doesn’t even make sense that one can “overstate” one’s own opinion. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > I would prefer a good grounding in geography as well as economics for the President. But we already know that the American people don’t vote for economists & political geographers, preferring war heroes & other jocks. So if it’s freaking scary, then let’s apply that to the system of _how we choose candidates._ > > Your candidate _doesn’t admit_ that he’s not an economist. Mac _does._ Big giant point to Mac. > > [Dunning-Kruger effect.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect) Read it. Know it. Live it. Please. Talk about rolleye-inducing. I post links to multiple incidences of John McCain, candidate for President of the United States of America, not having even a basic knowledge or understanding of several important issues, the most frightening (in my opinion) being the economy, and I should “Read, Know and Live” some theory about how many people think they know less than they actually do. That is so utterly absurd an application here, I don’t even know why I’m bothering to address it. John McCain wants to run the entire country. He admits utter ignorance on a multitude of subjects. We’ve had a goddamn moron in the White House for the past 7 1/2 years, who has driven this country into the toilet. But I get a lecture and a rolleyes on “overstating” how utterly frightening it is that anyone would consider electing another president who is dumber than a box of hair, and you give him points for being “honest” about his dumbfuckery. Good grief. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/29 "2008-07-12T17:07:55Z")
The president is in control of the entire US economy? I’ll need a cite for that. **Shayna** : Do you think Obama believe he knows as much as he should about every aspect of the presidency? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/30 "2008-07-12T17:17:46Z")
> **[The Week That Should Have Ended McCain's Presidential Hopes](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-week-that-should-have_b_111983)** > > Any one of the embarrassing incidents and comments this week would dominate the news cycle if they came from the Obama campaign. Yet McCain barely gets a mention. Video link there. I know, I know, Huffington is left wing, but it’s ABC being clipped. I’m getting kinda worried about Mr. McCain now. I mean, on a personal level. (I would also like to thank Firefox’s Awesome Bar for finding that link. I just typed ‘McCain’ and ‘Week’ in and it found it for me. Tell me that’s not awesome. ) ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/31 "2008-07-12T17:47:02Z")
A. [QUOTE=GargoyleWB] Social: He does not consider women’s issues, health issues (stem cells), or scientific issues to be a priority. When questioned directly, it’s clear he isn’t literate on the subjects. Big red flag for me. [/QUOTE] I would flesh this out further John McCain opposes the intentional creation of human embryos for research purposes. He has stated flatly that he would allow no embryonic stem cell research whatsoever. He would allow adult stem cell research. (This **is** the Bush policy BTW but I am just stating the facts) Obama would rescind the ban on embryonic stem cell research. Famously McCain would expand Nuclear plants in the U.S. to the tune of 45 new nuclear reactors by 2030. Obama would be more cautious if allowing it at all. But under this there are secondary differences on Nuclear stuff too: B. McCain would like to work and renegotiate the “shortcomings” in the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty ([CTBT](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Test_Ban_Treaty) ) Obama would try to get the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) Ratified C. McCAin is pro-Yucca Mountain to store Nuclear waste Obama is anti- Yucca Mountain to store Nuclear waste ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/32 "2008-07-12T18:22:14Z")
[QUOTE=jimmmy] A. I would flesh this out further John McCain opposes the intentional creation of human embryos for research purposes. He has stated flatly that he would allow no embryonic stem cell research whatsoever. He would allow adult stem cell research. (This **is** the Bush policy BTW but I am just stating the facts) [/quote] Not true. From [CNN:](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.stemcell.html) > [@](#): > > John McCain > Supports federal funding for embryonic stem cell research on embryos that would otherwise be discarded or perpetually frozen. > [@](#): > > Obama would rescind the ban on embryonic stem cell research. There is no ban on embryonic stem cell research. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/33 "2008-07-12T19:10:40Z")
One thing I would add is that although McCain is anti-abortion, he believes that Federalism should be expanded and so that abortion should be left up to the states. Let’s be honest, out of 50 states, at least one will be a haven for mothers(not)-to-be. It was this sort of political ideas before personal beliefs that made me want to vote for him. That and as a moderate (Bull-moose) Republican, I am tired of the Religious Right controling the party. So as not to start a new thread - 1. has McCain betrayed the moderate faction of the Republican Party in an effort to get elected? 2. are there any Dopers that a few months ago were undecided that are now firmly in the Obama camp because of McCain’s campaign? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/34 "2008-07-12T20:45:33Z")
I did a little searching, and I can’t see that Obama and McCain differ on the issue of embryonic stem cell research. I haven’t seen any evidence that Obama favors funding the creation of new embryos solely for the purpose of research, but maybe I missed something. If he does, he would be wise not to advertise that view. n.b,: Personally, I have no problem with the creation of embryos for research. But I expect most Americans would. Or most Americans would prefer not to fund that activity with government money. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/35 "2008-07-12T21:30:00Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I did a little searching, and I can’t see that Obama and McCain differ on the issue of embryonic stem cell research. [/QUOTE] I do not understand this part of your post but that is simply not true [McCAin](http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm) does in fact say: \*For this reason, John McCain opposes the intentional creation of human embryos for research purposes. To that end, Senator McCain voted to ban the practice of “fetal farming,” making it a federal crime for researchers to use cells or fetal tissue from an embryo created for research purposes. Furthermore, he voted to ban attempts to use or obtain human cells gestated in animals. Finally, John McCain strongly opposes human cloning and voted to ban the practice,and any related experimentation, under federal law. As president, John McCain will strongly support funding for promising research programs, including amniotic fluid and adult stem cell research and other types of scientific study that do not involve the use of human embryos.\* Obama supports using [new lines of Embryonic Stem Cells](http://obama.senate.gov/press/070411-obama_renews_su/) no matter where they are from seemingly. This is the heart of what is going on in Stem Cells today in the U.S. it is at the heart of the politics as discussed below. [QUOTE=John Mace] There is no ban on Embryonic Stem Cell Research. [/QUOTE] Literally true\*. There there is government funding on 78 previously established stem cell lines. However all others created, including those created from soon-to-be discarded fetus’ in fertility clinics are not currently allowed to be used. This is the [Bush position](http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/20/stem-cell-nih/) and actually I read McCain’s published on his site position (above) to be more restrictive - he doesn’t even offer the half-ass Bush policy. NB I know two years ago McCain voted for a Bill that would have used left over fetus’ from fertility treatments produce Stem Cells, [This site](http://www.stemcellbattles.com/index_files/Page934.htm) hyberbolic\* as it is - really does show I think my view of McCAin and stem cells is closer to the trutch than "there is no substantive difference between Obama and McCAin ons Stem Cells\* \*I feel like we need to weigh into what is and not currently banned because I used the liberal bugbear of a “ban” instead of “restriction” on Stem Cells. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/36 "2008-07-13T00:07:39Z")
[QUOTE=jimmmy] I do not understand this part of your post but that is simply not true [McCAin](http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm) does in fact say: \*For this reason, John McCain opposes the intentional creation of human embryos for research purposes. To that end, Senator McCain voted to ban the practice of “fetal farming,” making it a federal crime for researchers to use cells or fetal tissue from an embryo created for research purposes. Furthermore, he voted to ban attempts to use or obtain human cells gestated in animals. Finally, John McCain strongly opposes human cloning and voted to ban the practice,and any related experimentation, under federal law. As president, John McCain will strongly support funding for promising research programs, including amniotic fluid and adult stem cell research and other types of scientific study that do not involve the use of human embryos.\* Obama supports using [new lines of Embryonic Stem Cells](http://obama.senate.gov/press/070411-obama_renews_su/) no matter where they are from seemingly. [/quote] Can you quote the section where it says “no matter where they are from”. I’m not seeing it. And for the record, McCain voted for that bill. [Link.](http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00206) > [@](#): > > This is the heart of what is going on in Stem Cells today in the U.S. it is at the heart of the politics as discussed below. I don’t think so. I think the mainstream view is that we don’t want to create embryos for the sole purpose of experimentation, especially since there are so many just sitting around or being destroyed as a result of IVF efforts. > [@](#): > > Literally true\*. There there is government funding on 78 previously established stem cell lines. However all others created, including those created from soon-to-be discarded fetus’ in fertility clinics are not currently allowed to be used. Again, not true. There is a ban on federal funds being allocated for that research, but states or private organization can fund it. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/37 "2008-07-13T05:19:55Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I don’t think so. I think the mainstream view is that we don’t want to create embryos for the sole purpose of experimentation, especially since there are so many just sitting around or being destroyed as a result of IVF efforts. [/QUOTE] Well I say the debate, in politics and in this Presidential race, is whether federal funds can be used to fund Embryonic Stem Cell research and not a value/moral discussion on bioethics. When you look at where the rubber meets the road this is the difference and where there action on the issue lies. Ethics and moral things are brought in to support the position that federal funding should not be used and not some twist the other way around. [QUOTE=John Mace] Again, not true. There is a ban on federal funds being allocated for that research, but states or private organization can fund it. [/QUOTE] yeah I know it very well John. I was saying your quote was “literally true” and pointing out chapter and verse what was currently allowed. [QUOTE=John Mace] Can you quote the section where it says “no matter where they are from”. I’m not seeing it. And for the record, McCain voted for that bill. . [/QUOTE] Well, first and importantly **I** noted that McCain voted for the bill lifting the ban on federal funding for Stem Cell research. However his position, on his webpage, he isn’t saying what you are John - it says nothing of the kind. I suspect this is by design. Where I infer he is signaling the hard right: \*As president, John McCain will strongly support funding for promising research programs, including amniotic fluid and adult stem cell research and other types of scientific study that do not involve the use of human embryos. \* Again, I submit that by design, he is leaving us all guessing on this: left an right. We have his vote record from last year, and last year he told Russert that partially a discussion with Nancy Reagan changed his mind on Stem Cells and we now “have to fund Stem Cells” - but his webpage is very ambiguous - we should see him say as flat out as you do “I support federal funds on Stem Cell research frozen embryos from fertility clinics.” How hard would that be if it is as clear as you are claiming? Why don’t don’t we see that on his website, why do we need to parse year old votes and single one liners in interviews? Because he doesn’t want to piss off the Sam Brownback’s of the world, and that is a difference with Obama right there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/38 "2008-07-13T16:13:27Z")
[QUOTE=jimmmy] Well, first and importantly **I** noted that McCain voted for the bill lifting the ban on federal funding for Stem Cell research. [/quote] Actually, the first thing you said on the subject was: > [@](#): > > He has stated flatly that he would allow no embryonic stem cell research whatsoever. Which is absolutely and completely wrong. > [@](#): > > However his position, on his webpage, he isn’t saying what you are John - it says nothing of the kind. I suspect this is by design. > > Where I infer he is signaling the hard right: > > \*As president, John McCain will strongly support funding for promising research programs, including amniotic fluid and adult stem cell research and other types of scientific study that do not involve the use of human embryos. > \* > Again, I submit that by design, he is leaving us all guessing on this: left an right. We have his vote record from last year, and last year he told Russert that partially a discussion with Nancy Reagan changed his mind on Stem Cells and we now “have to fund Stem Cells” - but his webpage is very ambiguous - we should see him say as flat out as you do “I support federal funds on Stem Cell research frozen embryos from fertility clinics.” How hard would that be if it is as clear as you are claiming? Why don’t don’t we see that on his website, why do we need to parse year old votes and single one liners in interviews? Because he doesn’t want to piss off the Sam Brownback’s of the world, and that is a difference with Obama right there. Eh. I know what his position is, and he’s stated it many times. But both candidates shade their views on their web sites. If you don’t believe me, why don’t you find the quote on Obama’s web site where he explains his belief in an individual’s right to bear arms. I looked, but he didn’t even have an entry for 2nd amendment rights on his web site.-- nothing at all. Is he so afraid of offending the anti-gun left? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/39 "2008-07-13T16:29:57Z")
More likely worried about antagonizing the “pro-gun” side. (Disclaimer: I’m using very loose shorthand here, the demographics on this are pretty murky…) Being a wussy-ass liberal, there probably isn’t anything he can do mollify the “pro-gun” side, they won’t believe him anyway. But the true believers of the ilk will vote entirely based on that one issue, similar to the “pro-life” vs “choice” rift. For the “anti-gun” left, I don’t think this is as strong an issue, gun control is on the agenda, fer sure, but it doesn’t rise to the level of other, more urgent, issues. Me, I saw all the guns I ever wanted to see before I was twenty. But I despair of any attempt to “get rid” of them, there are just too many of the damned things, and too many people who crave to have them. Even if we could effectively prevent their manufacture and sale, which we can’t, we wouldn’t be rid of them until the one’s we’ve already got rust away in…what?..thirty-forty years? Obama is shrugging it off. Politically expedient, to be sure, but better than a futile campaign that antagonizes a significant block but cannot hope to accomplish anything, ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738/40 "2008-07-13T16:53:34Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] we wouldn’t be rid of them until the one’s we’ve already got rust away in…what?..thirty-forty years? [/QUOTE] A bit longer than that. US troops [sampled the weapons of Baghdad](http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0515/p02s01-woiq.html) in 2003, and found some oldies: > [@](#): > > US troops have confiscated several 1915 Lee Enfields, the standard issue infantry rifle in World War I. > > “If only this weapon could talk,” Cortellesso says, lifting the bolt-action rifle out of a pile of weapons. “Maybe it would say it came here with General Townsend [of the British Army], and after he surrendered at Kut, perhaps the Turks got it and gave it to the Iraqis.” > > He adds, “Maybe it was at Gallipoli, and the Turks captured it in 1915.” > > The Lee Enfield isn’t the oldest rifle seized. Soldiers recovered a German Mauser infantry rifle made in 1871. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paint-a-picture-of-mccain-without-the-bush-brush/455738.md?page=3)