# Pale Red? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 10, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477 "2004-03-10T13:38:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lampare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/0ea827/32.png) [@Lampare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lampare)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/21 "2004-03-11T18:14:11Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > One might add that English is one of the very few languages to have a word for “pink”. And separate words for (galoubi) sky and Heaven (Himmel). ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/22 "2004-03-11T18:56:48Z")
I just found a quick little cross language dictionary on the web; I don’t know how good it is. In Spanish and German and French and Italian the word for the fruit and the color are the same and closely related, except that German also has the word ‘Apfelsine’ for the fruit but NOT the color. So there is no clue there. I just found a site for gaelic dictionaries (I love the internet); the only thing that comes up (other than ‘oranje’) is ‘lus ny shynee’ for 'orange flowered hawkweed. As I have no idea how to pronounce gaelic, that doesn’t suggest anything to me. The Swedish is the same as German. These all refer particularly to the color; note that all the European ones seem to be related, other than the Polish and Albanian. None of these suggest to me another word that might have been more commonly used before ‘orange’. orange Afrikaans oranje Albanian partokalli Bulgarian оранжев Catalan taronja Chinese 橙色 Croatian narančasto Czech oranžová Danish orange Dutch oranje Finnish oranssi French orange German orange Greek πορτοκάλι Hebrew כתום Hungarian narancssárga Icelandic appelsínugulur Indonesian orange Irish oráiste Italian arancione Japanese だいだい色 Korean 주황섁 Latin luteus Malay jingga Maltese oranġjo Norwegian oransje Polish pomarańczowy Portuguese (Brazilian) cor-de-laranaj Romanian portocaliu Russian оранженый Serbian наранџаста Slovak oranžová Spanish naranja Swedish orange Swahili chungwa Tswana lamune Turkish kavuniçi Vietnamese màu da cam Welsh oren Xhosa orenji Zulu kuyi-olintshi ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/23 "2004-03-11T19:19:43Z")
‘Saffron’? The word has been in use since Middle English, was used for dyes, and is related, kind of, to the latin word used for a similar color. Main Entry: saf·fron Pronunciation: 'sa-fr&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French safran, from Medieval Latin safranum, from Arabic za’farAn 1 a : the deep orange aromatic pungent dried stigmas of a purple-flowered \*\*crocus \*\*(Crocus sativus) used to color and flavor foods and **formerly as a dyestuff** and in medicine b : the crocus supplying saffron 2 : a moderate orange to orange yellow In Latin: croceus adj. [crocus] , of saffron, saffron-colored, yellow, golden: There is also flāvus , a, um, adj. [for flag-vus from FLAG, flagro, burning, light-colored] , golden yellow, **reddish yellow** , flaxen-colored but I can not thing of any English word that might have come down from ‘flavus’. My only problem with this is that ‘saffron’ seems a strange word to use when tempering steel. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/24 "2004-03-11T20:34:54Z")
Welsh had an unrelated adjective for orange ‘melyngoch’ ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/25 "2004-03-11T20:52:33Z")
oh. ‘melyn’ means yellow, and ‘coch’, red I really need a job. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/26 "2004-03-11T23:41:02Z")
> [@j66](#): > > These all refer particularly to the color; note that all the European ones seem to be related, other than the Polish and Albanian. > … > Polish pomarańczowy Nope. That’s got “naranga” in it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “pom” means “apple”. > [@j66](#): > > Romanian portocaliu I don’t see “naranga” in that, though. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/27 "2004-03-12T11:32:33Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > Nope. That’s got “naranga” in it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “pom” means “apple”. So it does; I guess the ‘pom’ just threw me. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/28 "2004-03-12T14:00:17Z")
I keep wondering reading this thread why it is that some people can’t conceive of there being a lack of a specific word for something that has a word now. There are numerous examples of languages that have terms for things English-speakers haven’t seen fit to create a different word for; instead we use combinations of words to describe them. And, after all, what does someone without the acquired vocabulary use? If you haven’t learned the word “mauve” are you unable to describe the color to which it pertains anyway? Of course not. I’m not going to jump into the debate about “perception” as it relates to terminology; I’m not qualified to comment and I don’t think there is sufficient evidence to judge. But it isn’t hard for me to conceive that, prior to application of the term “orange” (meaning a small fruit) to things colored similarly people just called such a color reddish-yellow. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/29 "2004-03-12T14:39:47Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > If you haven’t learned the word “mauve” are you unable to describe the color to which it pertains anyway? Of course not. But why would you want to? > [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > … it isn’t hard for me to conceive that, prior to application of the term “orange” (meaning a small fruit) to things colored similarly people just called such a color reddish-yellow. I was surprised by but quite accepting of that possibility until Lampare’s post about tempering steel. However, I leave to some other person the responsibility of searching the web for site on the history of metallurgy. Now that I think, I am just taking Lampare’s word that steel is heated to orange, rather than to red or yellow. No, no, no, I have to stick to the job boards today. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/30 "2004-03-12T15:49:34Z")
> [@j66](#): > > In Spanish and German and French and Italian the word for the fruit and the color are the same and closely related, except that German also has the word ‘Apfelsine’ for the fruit but NOT the color. > … > > The Swedish is the same as German. My German is a bit rusty, but I must say that I have never heard anything but “Apfelsine” for the fruit and the same goes for Swedish where it’s “apelsin”. I’ll go ask a German friend. In case you wonder what it means it’s “apple from China”. ---
**Author:** ![Lampare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/0ea827/32.png) [@Lampare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lampare)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/31 "2004-03-12T16:27:03Z")
I found the following table on the internet. It is of modern origin, but it illustrates the use of color in the forging process. Unfortunately, it stops short of “just plain orange”, but a reasonable extrapolation of the table will lead the reader through orange into yellow. The following table lists a few of the colors in order of appearance, with their temperatures: Brown yellow----------------500 degrees Brown purple----------------520 degrees Light purple------------------530 degrees Full purple--------------------540 degrees Dark purple-------------------550 degrees Full blue-----------------------560 degrees Dark blue----------------------570 degrees Very dark blue---------------600 degrees Red, visible in dark---------752 degrees Red, visible in twilight----885 degrees Red, visible in daylight----975 degrees Red, visible in sunlight–1077 degrees Dark red-----------------------1292 degrees Dull cherry red--------------1472 degrees Cherry red--------------------1652 degrees Bright cherry red-----------1832 degrees Orange-red-------------------2012 degrees I think it is safe to say that the color orange was observed prior to 1620, but I’m beginning to agree with those folks who postulate there was no specific name for the color before the fruit was introduced to the English speaking world. Maybe the finer distinctions were made by compounding the adjectives red and yellow with other descriptors. I never did like the color orange, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/32 "2004-03-12T17:55:04Z")
Well, the Ask-the-Linguist message board wouldn’t help me. Given that we have found no European word for the color that does not refer to the fruit (except possibly the Rumanian) and, significantly, that German has a \*\*different \*\* word for the fruit which **also** is used for the color, I seriously doubt there was an earlier word. About medieval mettalurgist: Now, I found a message board for black-smiths, and they use the word ‘orange’ a lot. So I am convinced that early mettalurgist could have used a word for orange. But, I also found [http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/armor/atli/swords1.htm](http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/armor/atli/swords1.htm) > [@](#): > > Tempering, of itself, is proof of a benevolent Deity: for as the metal is heated the surface is oxidized and reflects different colors at different temperatures. Starting with pale yellow at 420 degrees it goes to straw (470), bronze (500), purple (540), dark blue (590), and steel gray (650). When you get to gray the temper is completely drawn and you have undone your hardening." Which stops well short of the supposed orange at the high end of Lampare’s scale; could Medieval smiths have achieved that temperature? I supppose ‘straw’ could have referred to orange. However, on the same site as above, I found > [@](#): > > From Pliny the Elder (+AD79) until the 17th century the sources are remarkably tight lipped. The reason for this is that knowledge of smelting, forging and tempering techniques were important trade secrets … So, here is my final suggestion; metallurgist and smiths deliberately undermined any attempt to introduce a word for the color just to keep their smelting techniques secret. Now that I reconsider Lampare’s post that started me on this fruitless search, I must ask why would metallurgists need a word for the color? They weren’t writing text book; they could **show** the color to the apprentices. Although I really like ‘jaundiced pomegranate’. Does anyone need a chemist? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/33 "2004-03-12T19:30:51Z")
According to the OED, the fruit was known by the name “orenge” as early as 1387. The word was used to describe the color of an orange by 1542. What answers our question, however, is that heraldically, at about the same time (according to the OED), “orange” was used for a short time as a synonym for “tenné”, which can also be spelled “tawny”. Therefore, the word used in English to refer to the color now known as “orange” was most likely “tawny”. “Tawny” is only documented back to 1377, but it seems that early use was broader than “orange” and included “orange” in with various other brownish colors (aka “tawny”–tan-like). So, it seems that the actual perception of color may very well have changed over the centuries–not that the human eye changed, but the cultural conventions over where a specific color began and ended changed. It is true that some colors seem to be universal, but some are not–and the boundaries between colors can vary. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/34 "2004-03-12T20:07:57Z")
I would like to see the original source for > [@](#): > > “orange” was used for a short time as a synonym for “tenné” . How short a time and how often? > [@](#): > > “Tawny” is only documented back to 1377, but it seems that early use was broader than “orange” and included “orange” in with various other brownish colors I’m not convinced; orange isn’t brown, or tan. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/35 "2004-03-12T20:15:09Z")
> [@j66](#): > > I would like to see the original source for . How short a time and how often? > > I’m not convinced; orange isn’t brown, or tan. Give the counter documentary evidence, then. Prove that Tawny was NOT used as a word that included orange. The OED says that it was. What is your counter-evidence that color categorization has NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER changed at all, throughout all of time and across all cultures? As for seeing the original source for the use of orange as a synonym for tenne, just consult the online Oxford English dictionary under the “orange” headword. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/36 "2004-03-12T20:16:22Z")
> [@](#): > > But why would you want to? If you don’t **know** a word, you can’t **use** the word, _n’est-ce pas_? I am certain if someone told you that greyish-purple with a hintof pink is “mauve” you might use it (assuming you remembered). But until then, you’d more than likely call the color “greyish-purple” if you were forced to describe it. Take another example. The carpet in the room in which I am presently located is “blue.” By telling you this, do I really tell you the color of the carpet? Can you see in your mind what color I mean and be certain you are correct? If I tell you it is “navy,” do you have a better picture? But if I tell someone from, say, Nepal, that I have a “navy” carpet, will this mean anything? Am I not better off saying “very dark blue?” And even if I use “navy,” do you really know what I mean, given that in clothing, the term is now often used to describe virtually any dark blue, when it once meant only the blues so dark that they were almost indistinguishable from black, which color was used by the Royal Navy. And to give you a final example, open up your Crayola™ 64 color crayons. Are all those distinct colors? Yes. Do they all have distinct names? No. Many are still described by using terms like, “yellow-green” and “green-yellow,” which are two distinctly different colors, and I bet that you can’t even from THAT discription decide which of the two is what color in your mind. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/37 "2004-03-12T20:49:39Z")
> [@Dogface](#): > > As for seeing the original source for the use of orange as a synonym for tenne, just consult the online Oxford English dictionary under the “orange” headword. Sigh. I was referring to the source which the OED used. Was it a contemporaneous well regarded dictionary used by most scholars in the 1300s? Or a single reference in a document of dubious provenance? > [@Dogface](#): > > Give the counter documentary evidence, then. Prove that Tawny was NOT used as a word that included orange. The OED says that it was. What is your counter-evidence that color categorization has NEVER EVER … EVER changed at all, throughout all of time and across all cultures? I researched ‘tawny’ while looking for ‘orange’; I wasn’t convinced. For one thing, it’s not old enough. There were crocus stamens well before 1377. I am not interested in all times and all cultures at this point. And I am not interested in you. Go play in the Pit. DSYoungEsq: I promise I will never be mean about the color mauve again. But the rest of your post has me a bit confused; I never suggested that describing a color by reference to other colors wasn’t very common, and a very good idea at that. Reddish-yellow describes orange very well. Describing a color with reference to a common natural object, like grass or stamen, is also a good idea. But instead of just assuming people called the color reddish-yellow, I thought I check it out, so I wouldn’t have to clean the house after looking for work. To recap: All the European words that I found for the color refer to the fruit, AND there two distinct words for the fruit, one from the Arabic for orange-tree and one from ‘apple of China’. Except for Welsh, which uses a word that translates to ‘yellow-red’, and I don’t know how old that word it. And I rejected the proposition that mettalurgists needed the word (after wasting hours over two days) on the ground that they could demonstrate the color to their apprentices. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/38 "2004-03-13T04:35:55Z")
> [@j66](#): > > I was referring to the source which the OED used. > Was it a contemporaneous well regarded dictionary used by most scholars in the 1300s? Or a single reference in a document of dubious provenance? There were no dictionaries in the 14th century. There were no respectable dictionaries (by our standards) until the 18th century. And the OED doesn’t normally cite dictionaries, anyway, unless it finds a dictionary entry earlier than any other printed instance. It cites real examples. There is no doubt that “tenné” has been used for many centuries to mean “orange” in the specialized half-French, half-English jargon of heraldry. But it was not in the vocabulary of the typical Englishman (or Frenchman, for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/39 "2004-03-13T04:54:13Z")
So much is being made of dates and words as cited in the OED, let’s just look and see: First off, you can _flush_ the notion that the color is first cited in 1620. True, it _was_ as an adjective, but it came from the attributive use of the noun, much as the word/color **olive** developed: > [@](#): > > 1542 Inv. R. Wardr. (1815) 104 Item thrie peces of courtingis for the chepell of oringe hew. 1620 Unton Inv. 22 Two low stooles of black and oringe wrought velvett. So, there’s a use of the word ‘oringe’ in 1542, predating **tenne**. > [@](#): > > 1562 LEIGH Armorie 19 Now to the sixth coloure, whiche we calle Tawney, and is blazed by thys woorde, Tenne. It is a worshipfull colour, and is of some Herhaughtes called Bruske,…it is made of two bright colours which is Redde and Yellowe. So _tawney_\* was a mixture of bright redde and yellowe. Could be orange. Just one more, as a teaser. > [@](#): > > 1561 HOLLYBUSH Hom. Apoth. 35 Yalow as an \*Orenge appel. (Orenge appel) meant the fruit “orange” in that sentence. But the writer said it was **yellow as an orange**. So perhaps not all oranges were perceive as “orange” color at that time. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477/40 "2004-03-13T04:57:17Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > There were no dictionaries in the 14th century. There were no respectable dictionaries (by our standards) until the 18th century. Sigh. Again. "Was it a contemporaneous well regarded dictionary used by most scholars in the 1300s? " was a joke. “[A] single reference in a document of dubious provenance?” was half serious. As for ‘tawny’, _you_ opined yesterday (at 9:04 am) > [@](#): > > that would be the answer only if forced. The normal answer would be “yellow”, or perhaps “red” or “brown”. And even if ‘tawny’ were used for the color orange, _that_ apparently was not documented until the late 1300s, right around the time ‘orange’ as a fruit entered the language. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pale-red/233477.md?page=3)