# Paleoanthropology, Lucy, and the Dawn of Mankind **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 30, 2000, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316 "2000-11-30T04:06:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/1 "2000-11-30T04:06:43Z")
Ok, I didn’t know EXACTLY where to post this, and if I cause more work for the mods, I’m really sorry. Please know that I did not do it on purpose. That being said… I just read a book on Lucy and the Dawn of Mankind, written by the guy who discovered her, Donald Johannsen (I’m not sure if that’s right). However, it was published in 1981. What happened? What has been discovered since then? What other book should I get? It’s driving me crazy! HELP ME PLEASE! I was fascinated by the book. But he said at the end that with the discovery of Lucy there leaves a few very important unanswered questions. Such as, what came before Lucy? And what happened between Lucy and uh…shoot. I can’t remember what the other species was called, but it came 1 million years after. Well, it’s been 20 years, I expect there are some answers now! Help me find them, please. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/2 "2000-11-30T04:11:47Z")
I don’t know any books specifically, but there was a _Scientific American_ a month or two back that had a cover story on the subject. That would be a good place to start. Briefly, it now looks like the human line has had a lot of branches here and there. It’s pretty complicated. Just about every fossil found brings up more questions. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/3 "2000-11-30T05:22:03Z")
Hominids were pretty diverse until one evolved xenophobia and the intelligence to act upon it. ---
**Author:** ![Zor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/848f3c/32.png) [@Zor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zor)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/4 "2000-11-30T11:28:10Z")
The Human lineage should look somewhat like this: # ============================== 4.4M B.P. Ardipithecus ramidus Very few fossils. First upright walker and oldest hominid. # 4.2M B.P. Australopithecus anamensis Most likely common ancestor to all later hominids. # 4M-3M B.P. Australopithecus afarensis Lucy. Fully bipedal. Many ape like features still remain, especially on its skull. # 3M-2.2M B.P. Australopithecus africanus Improvement over Lucy. This species may have been an evolutionary dead end however. # 2.5M B.P. Australopithecus garhi Very few fossils. May possibly fit between Australopithecus afarensis and Homo habilis. # 2.4M-1.8M B.P. Homo habilis Handy man. Probably the earliest users of stone tools (Oldowan). Also begins the trend of larger brain capacity. # 1.8M-0.3M B.P. Homo erectus First hominid to come out of Africa and populate the world. # 0.3M-0M B.P. Homo sapiens That’s us. “M” denotes millions of years, and B.P. is before present. The book you read was probably _Lucy: The Beginnings of Humankind (1981)_, by _Donald C. Johanson_. A couple of recommended readings written by the same guy are: _Lucy’s Child: The Discovery of a Human Ancestor (1989)_ _Ancestors: In Search of Human Origins (1994)_ This one is also the companion book to the PBS series of the same name. You might be able to get some video tapes. _From Lucy to Language (1996)_ Lots of big and nice pictures. Seems to be a very popular holiday gift as well. I’ve never read any of these books, but the list comes off of a fairly good archaeology textbook. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/5 "2000-11-30T15:03:29Z")
Zor, thank you, thank you, thank you! That is exactly what I was looking for! Woohoo! Now I can sleep at night again. 🙂 Well, almost. I still need to go buy those books you mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/6 "2000-11-30T15:07:52Z")
**Zor** : > [@](#): > > Australopithecus africanus > Improvement over Lucy. Have a care when using terms like “improvement” when discussing evolution, **Zor**. There’s no better or worse in natural selection, just more or less fit for the environment. _A. africanus_ was perhaps more human (_homo sapiens_) -like, but not an “improvement” over Lucy’s species. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/7 "2000-11-30T15:24:23Z")
Note about Zor’s list: A good list, but I wouldn’t characterize it as the human lineage. According to a lot of paleoanthropologists, Afarensis, Habilis, Erectus, and several of the other species you named are evolutionary offshoots of our ancestors, rather than our actual direct ancestors, which remain undiscovered. In fact, I think Garhi is almost as certainly an offshoot as Neandertalensis. You could say they were our foreuncles instead of our forefathers. ---
**Author:** ![Zor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/848f3c/32.png) [@Zor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zor)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/8 "2000-11-30T18:57:28Z")
Point taken **Five**. Trust me, I pondered over the use of that term, but I was trying to keep things short. Strictly speaking however, the fact that africanus managed survive after Lucy dies out does make it an improvement, no? 😉 I believe the species I posted are the best bets we have, **Danimal**. If you don’t, for example, accept afarensis, then you’re left with a pretty big gap in time. I’m also under the impression that habilis and erectus have pretty much been accepted as our direct ancestors by all the experts. Do you have a cite about them being offshots? I’d honestly be interested because I could then proceed to make my professor look like a fool in class 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@ren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ren)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/9 "2000-11-30T21:01:37Z")
# ============================== 2.4M-1.8M B.P. Homo habilis Handy man. Probably the earliest users of stone tools (Oldowan). Also begins the trend of larger brain capacity. [/quote] So, actually, **handy** had a _huge_ head start (about 2 million years) in posting to the SDMB. That helps to explain his post count… ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/10 "2000-11-30T21:02:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zor \* > \*\*I believe the species I posted are the best bets we have, **Danimal**. If you don’t, for example, accept afarensis, then you’re left with a pretty big gap in time. I’m also under the impression that habilis and erectus have pretty much been accepted as our direct ancestors by all the experts. Do you have a cite about them being offshots? I’d honestly be interested because I could then proceed to make my professor look like a fool in class 😃 \*\* Er, no I can’t. At least not right now. It’s been the '80s since I last studied human origins, and I can’t remember the book I read it in. And alas, I don’t think I can help you embarass your professor by citing to James P. Hogan’s \* Inherit the Stars. \* A cursory Google search didn’t turn up anything to support my position. ISTR reading recently about more paleoanthropologists coming around to the idea that erectus is a direct ancestor of humanity; maybe that’s the conventional wisdom now. ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/11 "2000-11-30T21:45:25Z")
FTR, Lucy is on display, I think, at the Museum of National History in NYC, and is worth a visit to NY just to see her (of course, you might find another reason or two to visit Manhattan). ---
**Author:** ![tisiphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tisiphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tisiphone)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/12 "2000-11-30T21:52:17Z")
I just can’t resist these threads. 😃 Here’s a collection of helpful/interesting links. [Scientists Rough Out Humanity’s 50,000-Year-Old Story](http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/14/science/14ORIG.html) [Neanderthals Kept It In the Family](http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/20001013/hi_neanderthal.html) [The Surprise Immigrants](http://www.DISCOVERINGARCHAEOLOGY.COM/articles/051200-immigrants.shtml) [Ape-Man Fossils Shed Light on Human Dawn](http://www.ngnews.com/news/2000/04/04272000/apeman_12405.asp) This page also has other links to more information . . . [The Most-Complete Hominid Skull](http://www.discoveringarchaeology.com/articles/042600-skull.shtml) [DNA Tests Cast Doubt on Link Between Neanderthals and Modern Man](http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/032900sci-anthro-neanderthal.html) Aaand of course, this one. 🆒 [The Talk.Origins Archive](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/index.html). 🆒 This one is so nifty - you may freely print and copy from them for non-profit personal and educational use. Enjoy! Tisiphone ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paleoanthropology-lucy-and-the-dawn-of-mankind/43316/13 "2000-12-01T00:18:37Z")
Tisiphone, thank you, thank you, thank you! I’m so excited over the answers I’ve received. I haven’t been this fascinated in something for a very long time. I even briefly considered majoring in anthropology…but I still want to be a lawyer more. Again, thank you. _does the dance of joy_