# Palestinian Children Tortured, Used As Shields By Israel, UN Says **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512 "2013-06-20T21:49:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/261 "2013-07-08T14:23:51Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > Both sides claim to be in the right, but I honestly don’t see why I should care about either of them. > > By my estimation over the last 30 years Israel has killed around three times as many innocents as it has lost. > > The Israelis perpetually claim the moral high ground because they do it with more advanced killing technologies. Sorry, but that doesn’t fly with me. The use of white phosphorous munitions and US made cluster bombs is no more morally right than home made rockets. > > Either way the result is a bunch of innocent dead children. > > If I could cut the whole middle east out of the history of human existence I’d do it in a heartbeat. I really don’t see how there would be any net loss to humanity if that happened. Did you know that during WWII that several orders of magnitude more German (and Japanese) civilians were killed than American? Or does that also not fly with you? You can’t quantify whether a position is moral or not based on the raw numbers of deaths, one way or another. A slightly less ignorant way to look at it would be to ask the seemingly simple question of WHY conflict happened in the first place. Who initiated the conflicts and why did they do so? Or, I guess you could just rant about cutting out the Middle East (you generally capitalize it btw…well, unless you plan to cut it from the pages of history) and doing some simplistic body count thingy to judge moral relativity in a complex conflict (why think? why research? just do the emotional thing and look at the body count to determine who is right or wrong! then bunch them all together and advocate cutting them all from the pages of history! it’s the right thinking way that any bigot would admire…) ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/262 "2013-07-08T14:54:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Did you know that during WWII that several orders of magnitude more German (and Japanese) civilians were killed than American? In the rest of the world the bombings of civilians during WWII _are_ considered war-crimes commited by the U.S. I guess, in your reasoning they couldn’t possibly be war-crimes, exactly because the US did it. Like torture isn’t really torture, if done by the CIA. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/263 "2013-07-08T14:56:11Z")
I’ve always found the metric of “who targets what?” to be much more useful than Bodycount Bingo. -If 100% of Hamas members quit civilian population centers and launched their rockets from open fields in agricultural areas, would Israel target them, or Palestinian civilians? Who, then, is being targeted? -If 100% of the IDF got into rowboats and rowed out to sea, would Hamas indiscriminately rain down rockets on them, or on Israeli towns/villages/cities? Who, then, is being targeted? Seems fairly non-ambiguous if you’re actually interested in an honest analysis of facts, rather than supporting some recreational outrage. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/264 "2013-07-08T14:59:59Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > In the rest of the world the bombings of civilians during WWII _are_ considered war-crimes commited by the U.S. > > I guess, in your reasoning they couldn’t possibly be war-crimes, exactly because the US did it. > Like torture isn’t really torture, if done by the CIA. Who is the rest of the world? All the great powers during the war committed similar ‘crimes’. Not that this has much to do with the point I was trying to make, but can you tell me who constitutes ‘the rest of the world’ who say that the US committed war crimes by it’s actions in WWII? Does ‘the rest of the world’ similarly condemn, well, every other participant of the that war as well? And if so (let’s say they aren’t being ridiculous hypocrites, for the sake of argument), what does it even mean to say that ‘war crimes’ were committed by every…single…participant? Does that put the US on par with Germany? Japan? Does that put the UK on par with both? Does it put the US/UK on par with the Soviet Union? The Soviets on par with Japan/Germany? What about the myriad crimes committed in the Balkins, Eastern Europe…how about those committed against the Jews by non-German nations? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/265 "2013-07-08T15:03:16Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > In the rest of the world the bombings of civilians during WWII _are_ considered war-crimes commited by the U.S. What is “the rest of the world”? It’d be far from a unanimous conclusion in any of the countries brutalized by the Axis Powers. And it’d be an uncomfortable sentiment in Great Britain or Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/266 "2013-07-08T15:06:30Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > In the rest of the world the bombings of civilians during WWII _are_ considered war-crimes commited by the U.S. > > I guess, in your reasoning they couldn’t possibly be war-crimes, exactly because the US did it. > Like torture isn’t really torture, if done by the CIA. The issue isn’t whether the US committed war crimes, it is which side in that particular conflict were, essentially, in the right to be engaging in that war in the first place. In highfalutin Latin tags, the terms of art are _jus ad bellum_ (the right to go to war), and _jus in bello_ (right conduct within war). A “just war” can be fought using “unjust conduct”, of course. The two are not necessarily related. The fact is that, no matter how the US fought WW2 - whether justly or unjustly in conduct - more Axis civilians were going to die for the simple reason that the Axis powers lost the war - meaning it was going to be fought, in part, in their countries; aside from the Aleutiens, not a single part of the continental US was actually invaded by the Axis. This does not of course mean that the Axis held the moral high ground. In the specific case of Israel, it would appear that some posters are in effect stating that Israel could only hold the “high ground” morally if it allowed an equality of civilian deaths with their enemies. I suspect that is not a theory of justice in war that would appeal to many Israelis, or indeed anyone actually likely to be involved in a war themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/267 "2013-07-08T15:10:02Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Who is the rest of the world? All the great powers during the war committed similar ‘crimes’. Not that this has much to do with the point I was trying to make That was exactly the point you were trying to make; that killing civilians wasn’t a yardstick of any kind. because, well.. \*we \*killed a lot of civilians and we are still the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/268 "2013-07-08T15:10:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The issue isn’t whether the US committed war crimes, it is which side in that particular conflict were, essentially, in the right to be engaging in that war in the first place. > > In highfalutin Latin tags, the terms of art are _jus ad bellum_ (the right to go to war), and _jus in bello_ (right conduct within war). > > A “just war” can be fought using “unjust conduct”, of course. The two are not necessarily related. > > The fact is that, no matter how the US fought WW2 - whether justly or unjustly in conduct - more Axis civilians were going to die for the simple reason that the Axis powers lost the war - meaning it was going to be fought, in part, in their countries; aside from the Aleutiens, not a single part of the continental US was actually invaded by the Axis. This does not of course mean that the Axis held the moral high ground. > > In the specific case of Israel, it would appear that some posters are in effect stating that Israel could only hold the “high ground” morally if it allowed an equality of civilian deaths with their enemies. I suspect that is not a theory of justice in war that would appeal to many Israelis, or indeed anyone actually likely to be involved in a war themselves. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/269 "2013-07-08T15:13:27Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > That was exactly the point you were trying to make; that killing civilians wasn’t a yardstick of any kind. because, well.. \*we \*killed a lot of civilians and we are still the good guys. Um, no…it wasn’t the point I was making actually. It’s that you can’t judge the relative merits of a conflict or who has or doesn’t have the moral high ground based solely on the body count. In point of fact, WE (meaning the US) didn’t kill most of the civilians who died in Germany or the European theater. We certainly did kill the majority of the civilians who died in Japan though. Neither fact is much of a metric to judge the relative merits of the conflict or set who was or wasn’t on the moral high ground. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/270 "2013-07-08T15:15:48Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > Both sides claim to be in the right, but I honestly don’t see why I should care about either of them. > > By my estimation over the last 30 years Israel has killed around three times as many innocents as it has lost. > > The Israelis perpetually claim the moral high ground because they do it with more advanced killing technologies. Sorry, but that doesn’t fly with me. The use of white phosphorous munitions and US made cluster bombs is no more morally right than home made rockets. > > Either way the result is a bunch of innocent dead children. > > If I could cut the whole middle east out of the history of human existence I’d do it in a heartbeat. I really don’t see how there would be any net loss to humanity if that happened. Ah yes, the in response to some relatively low level killings being done, I’ll commit genocide to show how enlightened and progressive I am. What a remarkably well thought out and compelling argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/271 "2013-07-08T15:19:15Z")
Latro, I notice you have yet to answer the question we’d all like the answer to. Who is “the rest of the world” that considers the American bombings of Germany during WWII to be massive war crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/272 "2013-07-08T15:37:36Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > In the rest of the world the bombings of civilians during WWII _are_ considered war-crimes commited by the U.S. My, what the rest of the world™ must think of the British. They were, after all, pioneering the bombing of civilians while the US had yet to enter the war. And while the USAAF continued to try to fool itself that it could target anything smaller than a city with any real degree of precision, the RAF abandoned that fiction and adopted a deliberate plan of area bombing of cities designed to ‘dehouse’ the German population. I noticed you list your residence in the Netherlands. You might want to write to your government representative about the [memorial](http://wikimapia.org/14579196/Bomber-Command-Memorial-in-the-Netherlands) they erected to commemorate the sacrifices of the 55,573 [del]members of Allied Bomber Command[/del] Allied war criminals. You might also want to look into hunting down the war criminals of your own from [No. 320 (Dutch) Squadron, RAF](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._320_(Dutch)_Squadron_RAF), which was part of RAF Bomber Command. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/273 "2013-07-08T16:21:54Z")
Another one of those “this has been done from time immemorial” … Israel has yet to climb that plateau where they can be treated as US or British when it comes to killing civilians. They’d like to be treated as untouchables of the World – God knows everyone arguing on their behalf on this board placed them there already - but it’s a hard climb and not many are impressed to that degree. Now, if only they could bomb those who are still not impressed they’d be going places. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/274 "2013-07-08T16:31:44Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > They’d like to be treated as untouchables of the World – God knows everyone arguing on their behalf on this board placed them there already Actually, the “Israel can do no wrong!” canard is propagated 100% by you and yours, most often as a simple diversionary strawman when you’re getting your head handed to you on factual/logical grounds. Not one single person you’re arguing with in this thread, not one, has refrained from criticizing Israel. Which, of course, leads one to wonder why y’all are so keen to use a label that even a cursory bit of paying-attention would have cleared up for ya. Personally, I suspect that it’s for a similar reason that we now have two posters posting in this thread to do nothing, at all, other than bewail how awfully they’re beaten and how they can’t even bother to post intelligently on the topic because, gasp!, people here disagree with them. See, despite that lil’ ol’ annoying bit about how the facts all contradict your claims, you just _know_ that it’s a Good Guys vs Bad Guys sorta thing, and you _know_ who the Bad Guys are. Facts just get in the way. IIRC, it was your claim that those who don’t reflexively share your anti-Israel animus are introducing, what was your phrase… “false complexity” into the system? Obviously, your failure to sell your narrative is other people’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/275 "2013-07-08T16:42:49Z")
Sorry for the double post, but, yep, found the quote: > [@Al-Jazeera broadcasting leaked "Palestine Papers"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/145): > > Every time they are facing indignation from the casual observers and those in the know who are thousands miles away and when pressed with the facts on the ground and with the daily reality of the people suffering two get-out-of-jam cards are pulled. > > First one is invoking pseudo-complexity as a method of perpetuating status quo. It goes something like this… you know, you make lot of sense and I acknowledge it but it is much more complex than you might think, not that you are stupid or anything it`s just you have other things to do and you try to solve it quickly which means negating the inherent complexity and on and on until full 180 degrees turn in which you, as a bonus, get accused that your conclusion, always opposite of theirs, is harmful because it is, wait for it… too simplistic. It is the tool of a persistent yet not fully articulate apologist, has nothing to do with debate, facts, logic or arguments but just plain simple ignorance. I’m sure there is some Latin name for this kind of fallacy. > > The second one is used in a similar situation, as cop out, when facts and logic clearly point to only one conclusion, which needless to say is, again, opposite of what they would want you to conclude. It is the idea that if you only read something more, on top of what you already read, be it a book, an article, an essay, whatever it is, it assuredly contains stuff that would make you change your conclusion. Because, the cop-out method goes along the lines as… you seem well versed, you show significant knowledge of the subject, you are even congratulated on your interest, but they read much, much more from the sources not available to you, because there is a knowledge available only to them and they are certainly willing to point you in a right direction, they will provide all the resources however, you are warned that to get to the nirvana of the understanding about this conflict that they are at you will need not only years and years of study of new materials but also willingness to subject to mind-blowing truths so you better be open minded, which of course you are. There, another tool that perpetuates status quo. So, in other words, to you, people pointing out your lack of knowledge, or lack of comprehension, or lack of awareness of context? They’re all just trying to throw you off the scent. Because, after all, you _know_ you’re right. And what do they have, against your gnosis? Facts you weren’t aware of? Pshaw. Context that makes an issue more complex than a simplistic Good Guys/Bad Guys gloss? Who needs it! Evidence that you’re ignoring in order to come to your conclusion? Why are they playing such dishonest games?!? Truly, with such adroit debating tactics, I have no idea why you can post about nothing in this thread other than how powerless you are to support your own position. I’m baffled. Really. Scout’s honor. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/276 "2013-07-08T16:52:28Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Honesty > > I can’t really comment on OurLordPeace’s feelings on that issue, however, I do think you guys did a great job running him/her off, so I doubt s/he will be back to explain it. > > Given his/her lack of knowledge of things they were talking about, that would probably be for the best. > > > [@](#): > > > > - Honesty > > The irony, it stings a little.. OurLordPeace, read the response above, and my warning below: > [@](#): > > As you’ve noticed, **OurLordPeace** , a great deal of your posts have been carved out and reduced into snippets that are so far removed from the original context, that they’re essentially caricatures of your posts. This is done to diminish you as a poster and, in turn, make light of your position. Deja Vu, no? This is what they do here: devalue the poster to diminish their position. See it above, the proof is in the pudding. Do not participate in Israeli threads. Ever. This will my last post in this thread but felt obligated to highlighted this to **OurLordPeace** in case s/he comes back to look at the posts in the future. Have a nice day. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/277 "2013-07-08T16:54:55Z")
See, there you go again Finn, oppressing him and keeping him down. To paraphrase a little known and highly obscure quote: Everyone…come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! newcomer (et al) is/are being repressed! Or suppressed! Or perhaps oppressed! Or, perhaps are just being pressed! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/278 "2013-07-08T16:59:02Z")
> [@XT](#): > > See, there you go again Finn, oppressing him and keeping him down. Well, it’s cheaper than a movie and there’s free coff… hey, wait a minute, where’s the free coffee??? Curse you Zionist Overlords, curse youuuuuuuuuuuu! > [@Honesty](#): > > OurLordPeace, read the response above, and my warning below You’ve never heard of the PM system? Or are your posts merely preening displays of being fashionably-oppressed-via-debate, designed not to warn anybody at all, but to make a spectacle of yourself as you complain bitterly about how you keep losing debates in GD and obviously that just shows how much of a Martyr For The Truth you are? Do I even need to ask? > [@Honesty](#): > > This is what they do here: devalue the poster to diminish their position. Actually, it is fairly ironic that someone named “Honesty” is so relentlessly wrong on the facts. Absent of any malice on your part, it’s still ironic. Of course, it’s also true that you’re now objecting to people quoting your (and other people’s) own words, showing how they’re in error, and then responding to them. I mean, I gueeeeeees that you have a point, in as much as the fact that a poster who is prone to numerous mistakes of fact and logic, is indeed pretty much devalued as a useful source of information. But the solution to that is, wait for it… to post with actual facts and valid, sound logic. I know, who’d a thunk it? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/279 "2013-07-08T17:43:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Actually, it is fairly ironic that someone named **“Honesty” is so relentlessly wrong on the facts**. Absent of any malice on your part, it’s still ironic. **Of course, it’s also true that you’re now objecting to people quoting your (and other people’s) own words, showing how they’re in error, and then responding to them**. I mean, I gueeeeeees that you have a point, in as much as the fact that a poster who is prone to numerous mistakes of fact and logic, is indeed pretty much devalued as a useful source of information. But the solution to that is, wait for it… to post with actual facts and valid, sound logic. > > I know, who’d a thunk it? (bolding mine) You see how you keep making this personal? I said no such things. Your username is a spin off one of the most racist books ever made. Period. What if I were to make comments based on that rather than focus on your post? Frankly, if I made it an issue, I’m sure I’d be (rightfully) told to focus on your posts rather than your username. Besides, unless I’m trying to hit below the belt, why would I? The problem you have FinnAgain, is that your debating style is pedantic and childish, you snip and cut posts into digestible quotes , and from them, you assemble what basically equates to a strawman that’s out-of-context from the original post. Have a nice day. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/280 "2013-07-08T17:54:27Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > (bolding mine) > > You see how you keep making this personal? I said no such things. Your username is a spin off one of the most racist books ever made. Period. What if I were to make comments based on that rather than focus on your post? Frankly, if I made it an issue, I’m sure I’d be (rightfully) told to focus on your posts rather than your username. Besides, unless I’m trying to hit below the belt, why would I? The problem you have FinnAgain, is that your debating style is pedantic and childish, you snip and cut posts into digestible quotes , and from them, you assemble what basically equates to a strawman that’s out-of-context from the original post. > > Have a nice day. > > - Honesty The problem is that you aren’t here to debate, in _any_ style. You, and others, have shown up here specifically to state that debating is pointless here. Finn’s just saying that he thinks you are wrong. There is only one way to deal with that which works here - and that is, to prove you are right, using facts and arguments (that is, to debate). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512.md?page=15)