# Palestinian Children Tortured, Used As Shields By Israel, UN Says **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512 "2013-06-20T21:49:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/301 "2013-07-08T20:20:25Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > And you call this a debate point? You do realize that the rest of us can not only read Malthus’ post, we also can realize that you cut out all of the reasons he gave why the cite was crap? That, in fact, we realize that you cut them out because you have no cogent response to them? > [@newcomer](#): > > #1 – If you engage in a war after you already committed illegal act, the war itself cannot be just – fail at ad bellum Fallacy of Begging the Question. Also, irrational and inchoate. If the US government were to, say, encroach upon Canadian fishing grounds and Canada responded by indiscriminately shelling the northern states… what kind of person would argue that the US government just had to sit back and like it, and that Canada could kill as many Americans as they wanted, as long as American fishermen were still stealing Canadian fish? > [@newcomer](#): > > #2 – the difference in civilians’ death cannot be explained by engaging in a conduct of war that is reasonable – fail at jus in bello Of course it can. This is morality-via-etch-a-sketch, and it’s just as wrong as the last umpteenbillion times your coterie has trotted it out. It’s just a horrible, foolish argument. Were more German civilians, or more American civilians killed during WWII? Does that mean that the Nazis held the moral high ground? No? Does the fact that Hamas deliberately uses its population as human shields enter into the equation (for you)? No? Funny, that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/302 "2013-07-08T20:21:36Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I think you are not even aware of how biased you are. I mean, seriously, you have no clue what a debate is, you wouldn’t recognize a proof even if it hit you in the head. You didn’t even pick essential points from the article or my post. You just went in like a hoarder picking stuff up and making stories about them. You’re being insulting instead of making an argument. Stop it or take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/303 "2013-07-08T20:23:10Z")
[QUOTE=newcomer] And you call this a debate point? [/QUOTE] I was going to trot out the ‘This is Sparta!’ line, but really, this is so off the irony scale as to be almost holy. Nope…this isn’t a debate. It’s you witnessing and then being all hurt when few by into your odd world view, despite your very nice opinion piece cite and article from 2008 that you felt was such a home run. > [@](#): > > To say “Oh, it’s just someone’s opinion, a bit late and a bit of a perversion” is not a debate. I’ve just taken my irony meter off line for the duration of this thread, as there is simply no way it would survive comic gold like this. So, pointing out that someone using an opinion piece isn’t a debate? Well, no argument there. Only one side is debating here (not me of course…just trying to add some comic relief to what is the 10,000th ridiculous thread on this tired subject). > [@](#): > > I mean, seriously, you have no clue what a debate is, you wouldn’t recognize a proof even if it hit you in the head. Even offline my irony meter twitched for this one. Hell, I think several unrelated irony meters in Antarctica (that have never even been connected to the internet) were close to exploding when you tosses this one out there… ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/304 "2013-07-08T20:23:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re being insulting instead of making an argument. Stop it or take it to the Pit. Oh, it’s just me making a mockery of another poster now, ins’t it? Good to know there are standards around here… ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/305 "2013-07-08T20:27:03Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > And you call this a debate point? No, that’s my summation. The ‘debate points’ were all the stuff I said before that. > [@](#): > > I think you are not even aware of how biased you are. I mean, seriously, you have no clue what a debate is, you wouldn’t recognize a proof even if it hit you in the head. You didn’t even pick essential points from the article or my post. You just went in like a hoarder picking stuff up and making stories about them. I thought you were against picking on a poster and not his or her arguments. > [@](#): > > To say “Oh, it’s just someone’s opinion, a bit late and a bit of a perversion” is not a debate. Your first two points were not made by me, but by others. > [@](#): > > Since you will no doubt continue abusing debate by asking to point out what essential points are let me do that again and this time, stand up and be counted to deliver debate the way you preach because so far there’s nothing in your finely constructed posts even remotely similar to a debate. > > #1 – If you engage in a war after you already committed illegal act, the war itself cannot be just – fail at ad bellum > #2 – the difference in civilians’ death cannot be explained by engaging in a conduct of war that is reasonable – fail at jus in bello I’m honestly unsure as to what you are saying here. Your point 1 appears to be saying that, if a party commits an illegal act (by which I again assume you mean behaves unjustly in any respect), it is forever precluded from engaging in a ‘just war’. Your point 2 I interpret as meaning that Israel cannot kill more enemy civilians than it suffers in civilian casualties itself, if it is engaging in war in a just manner. Assuming I understand these points correctly, I disagree with both of them. In answer to point 1, it is not a requirement of a just war that a party wishing to engage in a just war behave perfectly justly in all respects, or it is forever precluded from being morally justified in any respect. Just war theory does not demand perfection. It is intended to be a realistic code. In real life, no parties are ever free of injustice themselves. In answer to point 2, a more powerful nation will generally inflict greater civilian casualties on a weaker nation or non-national group with which it goes to war. The reason for this is pretty straightforward: the war is more likely to be fought on the weaker party’s territory, among its civilians, rather than on the stronger party’s territory. Where the war is fought is going to have a major impact on whose civilians end up as casualties, quite irrespective of the morality of the parties - in the case of Gaza vs. Israel, it is always going to be Israel invading Gaza, not the other way around. That’s why just war theory does not simply prescribe a body-count as a way of judging morality. Otherwise, to give the example already mentioned upthread, the Nazis and Imperal Japanese would have to be judged more moral than the Americans in WW2. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/306 "2013-07-08T21:12:42Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] (Finn’s) username is a spin off one of the most racist books ever made. Period. [/QUOTE] What utter nonsense (exclamation point!). Most scholars and critics view Huck Finn as [an anti-racist statement](http://www.examiner.com/article/was-mark-twain-racist), even if its language offends some in modern times. \*"As Helen Scott writes, "The book (Huckleberry Finn) does contain language that has racist connotations today, and this has been “whitewashed” or ignored by the critical establishment. However, even figures such as Frederick Douglass used the same language when attempting a “realistic” representation of life under slavery Furthermore, the story undermines the logic of slavery to such an extent that “the authorities regarded the exposure of the evils of slavery and the heroic portrayals of the Negro characters as ‘hideously subversive’.” Perhaps the most convincing evidence of the non-racist content of the novel is in the scene where slave catchers are rowing toward Huck and Jim who is hidden on the raft. The slave catchers ask Huck, “Is your man white or black?” Huck struggles mightily with the customs of his race and then bravely blurts out, “He’s white.” Huck’s changes during the story in his attitudes towards Jim and slavery provides a clue as to the real “mind” of Twain. Huck comes to realize Jim’s humanity and finds his own at the same time. I like to think that Mark Twain went through the same transformation."\* > [@Honesty](#): > > Do not participate in Israeli threads. Ever. Here’s hoping you take your own advice. Really. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/307 "2013-07-08T21:25:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Most scholars and critics view Huck Finn as [an anti-racist statement](http://www.examiner.com/article/was-mark-twain-racist), even if its language offends some in modern times. Yep. It didn’t feel sportsmanly to point out that not only is that not where my username is from, not only is Huck Finn blatantly anti-racist, but that the only proof he provided was an opinion piece about how a guy was still angry, years and years later, that the word “nigger” was used in the book. This, evidently, makes it one of the most racist books. EVAR! ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/308 "2013-07-09T02:47:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Actually, the “Israel can do no wrong!” canard is propagated 100% by you and yours, most often as a simple diversionary strawman when you’re getting your head handed to you on factual/logical grounds. Not one single person you’re arguing with in this thread, not one, has refrained from criticizing Israel. Which, of course, leads one to wonder why y’all are so keen to use a label that even a cursory bit of paying-attention would have cleared up for ya. Personally, I suspect that it’s for a similar reason that we now have two posters posting in this thread to do nothing, at all, other than bewail how awfully they’re beaten and how they can’t even bother to post intelligently on the topic because, gasp!, people here disagree with them. Don’t you make me reflexively accuse you of anti-Semitism! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/309 "2013-07-09T06:15:39Z")
Quiet, racist! ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/310 "2013-07-09T13:55:36Z")
> [@](#): > > In answer to point 1, it is not a requirement of a just war that a party wishing to engage in a just war behave perfectly justly in all respects, or it is forever precluded from being morally justified in any respect. Just war theory does not demand perfection. It is intended to be a realistic code. In real life, no parties are ever free of injustice themselves. You are adding a time dimension to a principle that is of a static nature - you are either engaged in a war on just grounds or not. You might elaborate on time dimension by arguing conduct PRIOR to the war; i.e. did one side do everything possible to avoid it but, I guess, it would be quite a collapse arguing Israel did everything possible to avoid violent confrontation. And that’s what my argument is - Israel cannot institute occupation, steal land and perform collective punishment without expecting reaction and then when violence erupts claim you engage in a just war because you’ve been provoked. Nonsense! In fact, one could argue that these strategies - especially land stealing that is internationally recognized as illegal - are designed to provoke Palestinians and since they can do sh!t their irrationality gives you sufficient basis for “enaging in just war”. Time dimension after a side is engaged in war is accounted for in #2 principle which postulates conduct during the war so mixing it all up like you did is nothing but a debate fail. > [@](#): > > n answer to point 2, a more powerful nation will generally inflict greater civilian casualties on a weaker nation or non-national group with which it goes to war. The reason for this is pretty straightforward: the war is more likely to be fought on the weaker party’s territory, among its civilians, rather than on the stronger party’s territory. Where the war is fought is going to have a major impact on whose civilians end up as casualties, quite irrespective of the morality of the parties - in the case of Gaza vs. Israel, it is always going to be Israel invading Gaza, not the other way around I like how you describe this matter-of-factly; i.e. they are easy kill because we go to their house and since it’s full of civilians, well, they get killed - what can I say, we’re so good! On a serious note, it is extremely preposterous argument which is related to principle #1. Palestinians are not just weaker they are absolutely overwhelmed. That is a primary reason Israel does engage in a war because they know not much can happen on their side. What Israel does is mostly for political purposes (please note I find Netanyahu to be a bloodthirsty nationalist) and they will do “this” on an ongoing basis. “This” I can describe as poking a wounded animal with a sharp stick, not deep enough to kill it but just enough to enrage it. Oh, and BTW thanks for making Siege of Sarajevo justified. I hear Serb leader Radovan Karadzic is looking for a new lawyer and you might just fit in. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/311 "2013-07-09T14:15:41Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Israel cannot institute occupation, steal land and perform collective punishment without expecting reaction and then when violence erupts claim you engage in a just war because you’ve been provoked. Nonsense! You are wholly ignorant of the topic you are expounding upon. To begin with, not only is military occupation explicitly allowed under the 4th Geneva Convention, occupied citizens who use military force against the state can be crushed. As noted, there never was a “Palestinian state”, most of the land in question was not privately owned, some of that land that you’re claiming is being “stolen” was actually owned by Jews and ethnically cleansed by Arab forces. Besides, despite your partisan screed, property disputes do not prohibit a nation from engaging in self defense. And as collective punishment is outlawed by the 4th GC, and Israel’s measures are explicitly authorized by it, then Israel’s actions are not collective punishment. QED. > [@newcomer](#): > > especially land stealing that is internationally recognized as illegal - are designed to provoke Palestinians It’s funny that many who are most stridently anti-Israel are also tacitly anti-Palestinian. Here you’re infantalizing the Palestinians and claiming that if there’s a dispute about who owns what land, that they just have no response but to freak out and start indiscriminately attacking Israeli civilians. Like they’re toddlers with poor impulse control. Of course, there have been disputes between New York and New Jersey about who owns what real estate for quite some time. Remind me, how many times has Jersey launched rockets at downtown Manhatatan? > [@newcomer](#): > > I like how you describe this matter-of-factly; i.e. they are easy kill because we go to their house and since it’s full of civilians, well, they get killed - what can I say, we’re so good! This evinces a fundamental lack of comprehension. The side whose territory a war is fought in will have higher civilian casualties, because that’s where the war is being fought. Added to that, the fact that Hamas uses its population as human shields further adds to the civilian death toll, which is a deliberate aim of Hamas’ program in Gaza. Malthus did not claim that Israel targets “house[s] full of civilians”. > [@newcomer](#): > > Palestinians are not just weaker they are absolutely overwhelmed. Then initiating military activity which they cannot possibly win and which will cause Israel to engage in self defense that will have significant negative consequences for Palestinians with zero territorial or military gains for Hamas is not a Just War, eh? > [@newcomer](#): > > That is a primary reason Israel does engage in a war because they know not much can happen on their side. Here we see Religious Logic; you have a conclusion and you’re working backwards to find facts that can support it. Israel defends itself in '48, '67, etc…? Well, let’s not acknowledge that, because when its civilians are routinely being attacked by rockets, Israel defends them. And the primary reason Israel defends its civilian population is because, Snidely Whiplash style, they’re twirling their mustaches while cackling about how they can’t have any negative repercussions on their side. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/312 "2013-07-09T16:00:45Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Of course, there have been disputes between New York and New Jersey about who owns what real estate for quite some time. Remind me, how many times has Jersey launched rockets at downtown Manhatatan? At the risk of attracting selective ire of moderators I’ll go out of my way and designate this analogy of Israel-Palestine conflict as the most infantile piece of work put together that’s - even for a notorious debate-dilettante – new bottom in Israeli propagandist apologia. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/313 "2013-07-09T16:04:50Z")
So in other words, you have absolutely no answer to the fact that property disputes need not lead to violence, and you can only resort to personal insults. Excellent factual rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/314 "2013-07-09T16:06:31Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > At the risk of attracting selective ire of moderators Our ire isn’t that hard to avoid. Since you’re not even trying, I’m issuing a formal warning now. I think you’ve been given a handful of notes recently, and more warnings are in your future if you don’t stop insulting other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/315 "2013-07-09T16:28:52Z")
nvm ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/316 "2013-07-09T17:19:02Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > I didn’t claim that genocide of all the people in that shitty part of the world was my goal. All I was saying was that if the entire useless region was cordoned off and left to its own superstitious devices the rest of humanity wouldn’t lose much. Are you aware that Zionism was a secular philosophy and the vast majority of Israelis are only nominally religious? As for leaving the region to its own devices, yet again: oil. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/317 "2013-07-09T17:49:33Z")
And, sorry for the double post, but after that non-debate, I’m feeling a bit of blue brain after debatus interruptus. The idea that property disputes are a proximate cause, let alone a justification for physical violence, is an absurdity. Even in our post-modern era, multiple European nations have territorial disputes with each other. America has multiple territorial disputes with Canada. How many wars have been fought in recent memory between those states? Hell, even if we get into the real nitty gritty, even in America there are property disputes between neighbors all the time. But if one neighbor picks up a shotgun and starts blasting away at the other’s house, we don’t condone let alone justify that behavior. The idea that violence and property disputes are casually linked is nonsensical on all levels. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/318 "2013-07-09T17:50:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Remind me, how many times has Jersey launched rockets at downtown Manhatatan? Interestingly, the New Jersey-New York Line War lasted almost exactly as long as the conflict(s) between the state of Israel and its enemies has - 64 years. Of course, manifestations of the N.J.-N.Y. conflict have been [a bit more genteel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York%E2%80%93New_Jersey_Line_War): _“The last fight broke out in 1765, when the Jerseyans attempted to capture the leaders of the New York faction. Because the fight took place on the Sabbath, neither side used weapons. The New York leaders were captured and kept briefly in the Sussex County jail.”_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/319 "2013-07-09T18:08:03Z")
IIRC there are still (or were recently) disputes about the status of Ellis Island. With nary a rocket or suicide bombing attack. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/320 "2013-07-09T19:02:03Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > At the risk of attracting selective ire of moderators Damn, it felt like there was still something missing from the “excuses for why you can’t win a debate involving Israel” checklist in this thread, and there it is: the mods are biased. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512.md?page=17)