# Palestinian Children Tortured, Used As Shields By Israel, UN Says **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512 "2013-06-20T21:49:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/61 "2013-06-25T17:55:35Z")
OurLordPeace, I don’t know if you are twelve and read a couple of seriously messed up books, but you are deeply out of your element here. Most of the adults around here recognize the silliness of the kumba ya, no more countries John Lennon thing. Israel is a country, period. The Palentinians have land to form a country as well. Part of their issue is that their government boils down to an incompletent group in one spot and Hezbollah as the other group. I honestly wish both sides would stop shooting anything for awhile. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/62 "2013-06-25T18:40:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Since you are against nation-states, this statement has no meaning.IOW, you just mean that you are not really against all nation-states, just Israel. And the notion that Hizbollah and Hamas are more secular (and leftist) than Israel is laughable. You do know that Islam is a religion, don’t you? And that it rejects the idea of a secular state out of hand? > It might help if you could find some kind of moral consistency, and stick to it. Firing rockets at your neighbors is fine, but keeping teenagers between you and their friends throwing stones is a horrible atrocity. You are in favor of a one-state solution, provided that state isn’t Israel. You are in favor of a government led by religious terrorists, provided those terrorists are Muslim. Nations should be based on ideas held in common, unless those nations are Israel. > > _:shrugs:_ > > Regards, > Shodan I did not say Hamas nor Hezbollah. I referred to the [PFLP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFLP), which is secular, leftist, and supports a [one-state solution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution). Groups like that (some, like Fatah, supported two states) were the norm for a long time, until Hamas emerged. Some say that Israel supported Hamas in order to weaken the secular groups, like the US’s actions in Afghanistan. Did you not know this until today? The one-state which emerges would probably be called Palestine, though it might get hyphenated. Zimbabwe-Rhodesia existed, briefly. The one-state solution is becoming increasingly likely by default, ironically due to Israeli intransigence regarding the lands seized in 1967, and recent expansionism making a distinct Palestinian state impossible. In case you’ve never read about the one-state solution, the ruling class would be faced with two options: 1. votes for all, which will end the “Jewish state” concept, or 2. rule by apartheid. Eventually, over time, I would love to see an anarchist (anti-capitalist and anti-state) movement emerge in this new, democratic, multi-ethnic, secular (but probably segregated) Palestine. In fact, such [economic tendencies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutzim) have a long history in the area, joined recently by the [political side… amongst Israeli Jews!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchists_against_the_wall) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/63 "2013-06-25T18:42:27Z")
Does OP think this is Mundane Pointless Stuff? No. Please stifle yourself. And responding to OP is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/64 "2013-06-25T18:49:50Z")
Moving from MPSIMS to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/65 "2013-06-25T18:53:21Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > OurLordPeace, I don’t know if you are twelve and read a couple of seriously messed up books, but you are deeply out of your element here. Most of the adults around here recognize the silliness of the kumba ya, no more countries John Lennon thing. > > Israel is a country, period. The Palentinians have land to form a country as well. Part of their issue is that their government boils down to an incompletent group in one spot and Hezbollah as the other group. > > I honestly wish both sides would stop shooting anything for awhile. No, I’m 31, have read a lot of very important books, and finished my Master’s degree from a very well-regarded International Affair’s program by writing a paper about the US/Israel relationship. No, I didn’t write about anarchism, as that was not the topic. I think it’s pretty silly that ordinary people from one country should have to fight and die against similar people from another country, just because the leaders say so. I think it’s pretty silly to assume that nation-states are inevitable, since they’ve only been around since the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. I think it’s pretty silly to take any power relationships on faith, unless you’re okay with things like racism, sexism, classism, ageism, ableism, LGBTQ-phobia, and all the rest. Israel’s domestic stances on these issues are often admirable, but also beside the point. See the next paragraph. Yes, Israel is a country, founded by ethnic cleansers who pioneered many terrorist techniques by murdering the same people who had saved Jews in the Holocaust. If the Palestinians do have enough land for a viable state, you’re still asking them to surrender the lands seized in 1967. In any case, that two-state solution is inferior to a one-state solution. Yes, it’s a serious problem that their leadership is composed of the corrupt (Fatah) and the reactionary Islamists (Hamas, not Hezbollah). No, I do not agree with the stances of either group, and it just goes to show you why anarchists distrust leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/66 "2013-06-25T19:15:58Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > No, I’m 31, have read a lot of very important books, and finished my Master’s degree from a very well-regarded International Affair’s program by writing a paper about the US/Israel relationship. No, I didn’t write about anarchism, as that was not the topic. I’m willing to bet that whatever this “International Affair’s program” is, it’s not very well-regarded outside of select circles. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/67 "2013-06-25T19:18:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m willing to bet that whatever this “International Affair’s program” is, it’s not very well-regarded outside of select circles. You would lose that bet. I did make a typo regarding the apostrophe. I rarely do that. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/68 "2013-06-25T19:32:40Z")
WHO makes one fight for ANY country? The US does not force people to fight; it is an all volunteer force. Israel does not force combat upon anyone. This is just silly beyond what I am willing to entertain. Anarchist? Please. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/69 "2013-06-25T19:44:59Z")
A Master’s degree? Wow. That’s what it’ll take to solve this mess, more Internet posters with Master’s degrees. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/70 "2013-06-25T19:48:15Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > WHO makes one fight for ANY country? The US does not force people to fight; it is an all volunteer force. Israel does not force combat upon anyone. This is just silly beyond what I am willing to entertain. > > Anarchist? Please. The US had conscription at many times in its history, such as during the imperial slugfest known as the First World War. Anarchists and other leftists opposed the draft and the war, and were harshly repressed by the Wilson Administration. Israel has universal conscription. In recent years, Israeli military personnel have gone to jail rather than attack the Palestinian territories. In fact, throughout history, the ruling classes have usually forced (or sometimes hoodwinked) the masses into fighting. If you have to have a draft, you shouldn’t fight the war. Anarchist? You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/71 "2013-06-25T19:55:55Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > In fact, most don’t have a clue. They only get the Zionist side of the story from the American news media, as well as decades of Hollywood-fueled anti-Arab racism. Tell us more about how the “Zionist[s]” control/influence/other-weasel-word the “American news media” and how that’s connected to Hollywood. Do tell. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > No, I’m 31, have read a lot of very important books, and finished my Master’s degree from a very well-regarded International Affair’s program by writing a paper about the US/Israel relationship. Judging by the sheer amount of ignorance you display, I do not believe this. For example: > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > If the Palestinians do have enough land for a viable state, you’re still asking them to surrender the lands seized in 1967. Even a basic understanding of history would have let you know that Jordan and Egypt seized the “Palestinian” territories and prevented the formation of a Palestinian state, at no point were the territories beyond the Green Line “Palestinian”, and Jordan only symbolically transferred control to the Palestinians once it had lost the West Bank for quite some time, and its internal Palestinian population was getting to a point where another Black September was looking plausible. Did they not cover this stuff in your highly prestigious International Affairs program? > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > The political Zionist movement, _unlike_ the native Jews of Palestine, was unapologetic about its dedication to ethnic cleansing. Utterly and completely fictional. You have invented this or are parroting someone else who invented this. Jabotinsky and his coterie were the exception not the rule. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Israel’s founders stated this openly, before, during, and after the fact. They never hesitated to kill Palestinians of any age Utterly and completely fictional. Your comment is guano non-sane. One wonders how 20% of Israel’s population is Arab if they never hesitated in killing any and they were dedicated to ethnic cleansing. Just shows that facts have a well known Zionist bias. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > The Stern Gang/Lehi even attempted to forge an anti-British partnership with the Nazis, in exchange for deportation of Jews to Palestine. After all, such Zionists agreed with the Nazis about ethnically pure “volkisch” states. Utterly and completely fictional, and severely twisted. The Jews of the period were looking to save other Jews from the Nazis. That ethnic nationalism was on the rise across almost all of Europe and some of the Middle East is uncontroversial. That the Jews of the time _agreed_ with the Nazi ideology/policy of rendering land Judenrein is, simply, bonkers. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > And then there’s the USS Liberty, and Jonathan Pollard, and plenty more. A Conspiracy Theory and a single spy. Yeah… you’ve got a great start so far. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > So did you miss my post entirely? And yes, most people do lack information. Even folks with internet credentials from prestigious graduate programs, it seems. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > No, the Israelis started the war of 1967. It was a war of choice, and Menachem Begin admitted it in the early 1980s. Fiction, fiction, and then a distortion. Good show. If you knew the history of the region, you’d know that Egypt started the '67 war by instituting a blockade against Israel, a clear casus belli. But you didn’t know that. If you knew the history of the region, you’d know that it most certainly was not a “war of choice”, as Egypt was preparing to launch an assault, Syria was launching attacks from the Golan, and Jordan gave control over its army to Egypt. But you didn’t know that. You’ve also distorted Begin’s quote. His actual statement was that Egypt’s troop disposition, in and of itself, was not ironclad proof that Egypt was going to launch a ground attack, and that Israel acted preemptively. But, of course, Egypt had already started the war by blockading Israel’s ships from the Straits of Tiran. But as we’ve established, you didn’t know that. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > They do not act in self-defense; instead from the earliest days of the political Zionist movement, they have acted with the goals of ethnic cleansing and expansion Yet more fiction. Back in reality, the proto-Israelis bought land from its legal owners and settled on it. They were met with the rise of the Grand Mufti, who went on to ally with the Nazis for an actual plan of genocide. Not, you know, the one you’ve imagined. Oh, and the partition was drawn along ethnic majority lines. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Many of the present points of contention have their roots in that war. In any case, the hostility started in the late 19th Century, when modern political Zionism began. You do know that the Balfour Declaration wasn’t until 1917, right? In the late 1800’s, immigrants settled into wastelands and were driven by secular ideology, and just wanted to survive on the land. Of course, after Balfour there were the Arab Riots. You seem to have conveniently forgotten about 'em. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > This bunch had a nefarious agenda, that most of the world’s Jewry considered dangerous lunacy. Yet another fiction. In point of fact, global Jewry was quite supportive of the Zionist project (there aren’t Zionists anymore, by the way, there’s already a nation of Israel. So your odd, but ever so clever verbiage, should probably be updated to this millennium.) > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > As a result, there was usually very little friction with the non-Jewish inhabitants. Are you kidding? So being forced into Dhimmi status is… not much friction? You a fan of Jim Crow, too? Or is this a special case? > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > The Zionists changed all that. Richon L’Tzion, founded by 14 families, is in your bizarre understanding, a proximate cause of the murderous violence unleashed upon the Jews of the region. Kay. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > If perhaps you do support _volkisch_, ethnically defined states, shouldn’t Judaistan have been carved out of Germany, Austria, and perhaps other nearby places after WWII? The nation’s name is “Israel”, but I guess calling it “Judaistan” satisfies… something… for you. And of course, you have the standard absurdist boilerplate about how Jews, who wanted to get the fuck away from Germany, should’ve been told to live there. Of course, as Zionism was a movement of self determination, and the Zionists were living in the Mandate territory (or moving to it) and wanted to continue living there (and moving to there), your suggestion is… odd. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > As I’ve already stated, they were very clear about their desire to expel the non-Jewish inhabitants And as I stated, you or someone else invented that. And if your position is based on fiction… well… surely something in your grad program covered that eventuality, yes? > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > The rockets fired by Hamas (and rogue hooligans acting alone, such as the shots which precipitated Operation Cast Lead) are pathetic. “rogue hooligans?” Do you have any actual knowledge about Israel and Palestine, at all? Hamas rules Gaza with an iron fist, they’re a totalitarian, theocratic regime. That you think people are off firing off rockets without Hamas knowledge (to say nothing of retaliation) is such shocking willful ignorance that it beggars credulity. Unless, of course, you were also ignorant of that bit. Would you care for some citations so you can learn, ya know, facts? Just for a change of pace? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/72 "2013-06-25T20:01:09Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > If you have to have a draft, you shouldn’t fight the war. Bad news for the slaves freed by Union conscripts in the American Civil War, and millions saved from tyranny and murder by Allied conscripts in the Second World War. More to the point: you realize that the Palestinians weren’t the original inhabitants of the disputed lands, right? They have no original “tribal” claim either. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/73 "2013-06-25T20:05:25Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Tell us more about how the “Zionist[s]” control/influence/other-weasel-word the “American news media” and how that’s connected to Hollywood. Do tell. > > Judging by the sheer amount of ignorance you display, I do not believe this. > > For example: > > Even a basic understanding of history would have let you know that Jordan and Egypt seized the “Palestinian” territories and prevented the formation of a Palestinian state, at no point were the territories beyond the Green Line “Palestinian”, and Jordan only symbolically transferred control to the Palestinians once it had lost the West Bank for quite some time, and its internal Palestinian population was getting to a point where another Black September was looking plausible. Did they not cover this stuff in your highly prestigious International Affairs program? > > Utterly and completely fictional. You have invented this or are parroting someone else who invented this. Jabotinsky and his coterie were the exception not the rule. > > Utterly and completely fictional. Your comment is guano non-sane. > One wonders how 20% of Israel’s population is Arab if they never hesitated in killing any and they were dedicated to ethnic cleansing. Just shows that facts have a well known Zionist bias. > > Utterly and completely fictional, and severely twisted. The Jews of the period were looking to save other Jews from the Nazis. That ethnic nationalism was on the rise across almost all of Europe and some of the Middle East is uncontroversial. That the Jews of the time _agreed_ with the Nazi ideology/policy of rendering land Judenrein is, simply, bonkers. > > A Conspiracy Theory and a single spy. > Yeah… you’ve got a great start so far. > > Even folks with internet credentials from prestigious graduate programs, it seems. > > Fiction, fiction, and then a distortion. Good show. > If you knew the history of the region, you’d know that Egypt started the '67 war by instituting a blockade against Israel, a clear casus belli. But you didn’t know that. > If you knew the history of the region, you’d know that it most certainly was not a “war of choice”, as Egypt was preparing to launch an assault, Syria was launching attacks from the Golan, and Jordan gave control over its army to Egypt. But you didn’t know that. > You’ve also distorted Begin’s quote. His actual statement was that Egypt’s troop disposition, in and of itself, was not ironclad proof that Egypt was going to launch a ground attack, and that Israel acted preemptively. But, of course, Egypt had already started the war by blockading Israel’s ships from the Straits of Tiran. But as we’ve established, you didn’t know that. > > Yet more fiction. > Back in reality, the proto-Israelis bought land from its legal owners and settled on it. They were met with the rise of the Grand Mufti, who went on to ally with the Nazis for an actual plan of genocide. Not, you know, the one you’ve imagined. Oh, and the partition was drawn along ethnic majority lines. > > You do know that the Balfour Declaration wasn’t until 1917, right? > In the late 1800’s, immigrants settled into wastelands and were driven by secular ideology, and just wanted to survive on the land. Of course, after Balfour there were the Arab Riots. You seem to have conveniently forgotten about 'em. > > Yet another fiction. > In point of fact, global Jewry was quite supportive of the Zionist project (there aren’t Zionists anymore, by the way, there’s already a nation of Israel. So your odd, but ever so clever verbiage, should probably be updated to this millennium.) > > Are you kidding? > So being forced into Dhimmi status is… not much friction? > You a fan of Jim Crow, too? Or is this a special case? > > Richon L’Tzion, founded by 14 families, is in your bizarre understanding, a proximate cause of the murderous violence unleashed upon the Jews of the region. Kay. > > The nation’s name is “Israel”, but I guess calling it “Judaistan” satisfies… something… for you. And of course, you have the standard absurdist boilerplate about how Jews, who wanted to get the fuck away from Germany, should’ve been told to live there. Of course, as Zionism was a movement of self determination, and the Zionists were living in the Mandate territory (or moving to it) and wanted to continue living there (and moving to there), your suggestion is… odd. > > And as I stated, you or someone else invented that. > And if your position is based on fiction… well… surely something in your grad program covered that eventuality, yes? > > “rogue hooligans?” > Do you have any actual knowledge about Israel and Palestine, at all? > Hamas rules Gaza with an iron fist, they’re a totalitarian, theocratic regime. That you think people are off firing off rockets without Hamas knowledge (to say nothing of retaliation) is such shocking willful ignorance that it beggars credulity. > Unless, of course, you were also ignorant of that bit. > > Would you care for some citations so you can learn, ya know, facts? > Just for a change of pace? Professors Mearsheimer and Walt have you beaten on all of that. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/74 "2013-06-25T20:06:35Z")
The UN has zero credibility on all things Israel. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/75 "2013-06-25T20:08:52Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Professors Mearsheimer and Walt have you beaten on all of that. Brilliant factual rebuttal. But what do I know, I don’t have a prestigious degree in International Affair. It’d be International Affairs, but there was only one and it was kinda boring and… anyways… Of course, W&M’s screed has been debunked on factual, methodological and logical grounds. But if you’d like to concede that I was correct on everything I wrote and all you can do is handwave the facts away with a shit cite, well, okay. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/76 "2013-06-25T20:12:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Bad news for the slaves freed by Union conscripts in the American Civil War, and millions saved from tyranny and murder by Allied conscripts in the Second World War. > More to the point: you realize that the Palestinians weren’t the original inhabitants of the disputed lands, right? They have no original “tribal” claim either. Canada and other places ended slavery without a war. The slave trade had been stopped, and thus every escaped slave was a blow to the Southern economy. Expanded abolitionist activism could probably have changed the trickle into a flood. In any case, abolition was not the reason the North went to war. True, but they among others have a better case than European Zionist Jews. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/77 "2013-06-25T20:19:07Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > True, but they among others have a better case than European Zionist Jews. Mmm hmmm. Care to show us your case-o-meter? It is just based on how long ago a group conquered a territory by military force, or some other metric? Meanwhile, are you going to address even one factual inaccuracy I caught you in? No? And how about you get back to your claims that the “Zionist[s]” somehow control/influence/manipulate the US media and what that connection is to Hollywood. Inquiring minds want to know. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/78 "2013-06-25T20:33:00Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Bad news for the slaves freed by Union conscripts in the American Civil War, and millions saved from tyranny and murder by Allied conscripts in the Second World War. > More to the point: you realize that the Palestinians weren’t the original inhabitants of the disputed lands, right? They have no original “tribal” claim either. Oh, and about WWII… The Allies consisted of regimes attacked by the Axis, plus a couple who had treaty obligations. Forces not only drafted by, but politically loyal to, Stalin and Mao (among other nefarious characters) did most of the fighting and dying. This does not indicate equivalency, but it does put it in perspective. Also, did you miss the part where the Zionists began a terror campaign against British peacekeepers, just after those same Brits helped to defeat Hitler? Mandate Palestine wasn’t like India or Nigeria (speaking of oppression and mass death, do you know how Churchill felt about the Bengal famine?) The area grew prosperous, and the British didn’t exploit it. Did you miss the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte, who saved thousands of Jews from the Holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/79 "2013-06-25T20:39:12Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Mmm hmmm. > Care to show us your case-o-meter? It is just based on how long ago a group conquered a territory by military force, or some other metric? Meanwhile, are you going to address even one factual inaccuracy I caught you in? No? > > And how about you get back to your claims that the “Zionist[s]” somehow control/influence/manipulate the US media and what that connection is to Hollywood. Inquiring minds want to know. You have assigned it a priority, so here: I did not say that Zionists control the media. You did! I don’t think that they do. Instead, the corporate media reflect the biases of those who don’t know much about the history of this issue, and instead take sides with people who look, dress, and talk more like Americans. This also reflects Hollywood’s usual jingoism. For decades, they have portrayed Arabs as stock terrorist villains, as if it were some kind of congential trait. Journalist Jack Shaheen studied this some years ago, in a notable book called Reel Bad Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/80 "2013-06-25T20:54:02Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Also, did you miss the part where the Zionists began a terror campaign against British peacekeepers, just after those same Brits helped to defeat Hitler? No, but you are again horribly ignorant on a subject you’re expounding upon. The Brits were capturing and imprisoning Jews who tried to flee to the Mandate, sometimes imprisoning them in the same concentration camps that Jews’d been liberated from, even after the state of Israel was founded. Glub Pasha and other British officers went on to lead the Arab Legion in the war of extermination waged against Israel in '48, as well. And that’s just a smattering. Of course, on the subject of the British, we can also put paid to another one of your absurd fantasies. [ > [@](#): > > The British hoped to establish self-governing institutions in Palestine, as required by the mandate. The Jews were alarmed by the prospect of such institutions, which would have an Arab majority. However, the Arabs would not accept proposals for such institutions if they included any Jews at all, and so no institutions were created. The Arabs wanted as little as possible to do with the Jews and the mandate, and would not participate in municipal councils, nor even in the Arab Agency that the British wanted to set up. ]([Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict)](http://mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm#The) British Mandate) Oh, and groups like the Haganah were formed in response to pogroms: > [@](#): > > Arab Riots and Jewish immigration - In the spring of 1920, spring of 1921 and summer of 1929, Arab nationalists opposed to the Balfour declaration, the mandate and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa and Haifa. The violence led to the formation of the Haganah Jewish self-defense organization in 1920. The riots of 1920 and 1921 reflected opposition to the Balfour declaration and fears that the Arabs of Palestine would be dispossessed, and were probably attempts to show the British that Palestine as a Jewish National home would be ungovernable. The major instigators were Hajj Amin El Husseini, later Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and eventually a Nazi collaborator, and Arif -El Arif, a prominent Palestinian journalist. The riots of 1929 occurred against the background of Jewish-Arab nationalist antagonism. The Arabs claimed that Jewish immigration and land purchases were displacing and dispossessing the Arabs of Palestine. However, economic, population and other indicators suggest that objectively, the Arabs of Palestine benefited from the Mandate and Zionist investment. Arab standard of living increased faster in Palestine than other areas, and population grew prodigiously throughout the Mandate years. (see Zionism and its Impact). > > […] > > Arab Revolt and the White Paper - In 1936 widespread rioting, later known as the Arab Revolt or Great Uprising, broke out. The revolt was kindled when British forces killed Izz al din El Qassam in a gun battle. Izz al Din El Qassam was a Syrian preacher who had emigrated to Palestine and was agitating against the British and the Jews. The revolt was coopted by the Husseini family and by Fawzi El Kaukji, a former Turkish officer, and it was possibly financed in part by Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. Thousands of Arabs and hundreds of Jews were killed in the revolt, which spread rapidly owing to initial unpreparedness of the British authorities. About half the 5,000 residents of the Jewish quarter of the old city of Jerusalem were forced to flee, and the remnant of the Hebron Jewish community was evacuated as well. > > […] > > The Husseini family killed both Jews and members of Palestinian Arab families opposed to their hegemony. The Yishuv (Jewish community) responded with both defensive measures, and with random terror and bombings of Arab civilian targets, perpetrated by the Irgun (Irgun Tsvai Leumi or “Etsel,”). Etsel was the military underground of the right-wing dissident “revisionist group” headed first by Vladimir (Ze’ev) Jabotinsky, who seceded from the Zionist movement, and later by Menachem Begin. > > […] > > the Germans. > > Illegal Immigration - The Jews of Palestine responded to the White Paper and the Holocaust by organizing illegal immigration to Palestine from occupied Europe, through the “Institution for Illegal Immigration” (Hamossad L’aliya Beth). Illegal immigration (Aliya Bet) was organized by the Jewish Agency between 1939 and 1942, when a tightened British blockade and stricter controls in occupied Europe made it impractical, and again between 1945 and 1948. Rickety boats full of refugees tried to reach Palestine. Additionally, there were private initiatives, an initiative by the Nazis to deport Jews and an initiative by the US to save European Jews. Many of the ships sank or were caught by the British or the Nazis and turned back, or shipped to Mauritius or other destinations for internment. The Patria (also called “Patra”) contained immigrants offloaded from three other ships, for transshipment to the island of Mauritius. To prevent transshipment, the Haganah placed a small explosive charge on the ship on November 25, 1940. They thought the charge would damage the engines. Instead, the ship sank, and over 250 lives were lost. A few weeks later, the SS Bulgaria docked in Haifa with 350 Jewish refugees and was ordered to return to Bulgaria. The Bulgaria capsized in the Turkish straits, killing 280. The Struma, a vessel that had left Constanta in Rumania with about 769 refugees, got to Istanbul on December 16, 1941. There, it was forced to undergo repairs of its engine and leaking hull. The Turks would not grant the refugees sanctuary. The British would not approve transshipment to Mauritius or entry to Palestine. On February 24, 1942, the Turks ordered the Struma out of the harbor. It sank with the loss of 428 men, 269 women and 70 children. It had been torpedoed by a Soviet submarine, either because it was mistaken for a Nazi ship, or more likely, because the Soviets had agreed to collaborate with the British in barring Jewish immigration. Illegal immigration continued until late in the war, apparently without the participation of the Mossad l’aliya Bet. Despite the many setbacks, tens of thousands of Jews were saved by the illegal immigration. And so on. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Did you miss the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte Your ignorance is showing. Again. The Stern Gang, a group whose membership maxed out at a few hundred, assassinated the count. And just days after the assassination, the Israelis declared the Stern Gang to be terrorists and criminalized their organization, later reaching an amnesty deal with the SG in order to achieve stability after the war. Really, it’s not a problem. I can help you find actual facts about the conflict that your program in International Affair evidently did not see fit to include. Be my pleasure. Fighting ignorance, n’ all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512.md?page=5)