# Palestinian Children Tortured, Used As Shields By Israel, UN Says **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512 "2013-06-20T21:49:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/81 "2013-06-25T20:54:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Mmm hmmm. > Care to show us your case-o-meter? It is just based on how long ago a group conquered a territory by military force, or some other metric? Meanwhile, are you going to address even one factual inaccuracy I caught you in? No? > > And how about you get back to your claims that the “Zionist[s]” somehow control/influence/manipulate the US media and what that connection is to Hollywood. Inquiring minds want to know. I thought that citing Walt and Mearsheimer would save a lot of time. I know what you are getting at, and what you want me to say, but you will be disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/82 "2013-06-25T21:03:10Z")
So you can’t answer to a single factual error I caught you in. So noted. Moving on. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > I did not say that Zionists control the media. Hrmmm, is that true, or is it bullshit? > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > And yes, most people do lack information. In fact, most don’t have a clue. They only get the Zionist side of the story from the American news media Whoops, **OLP.** Turns out your posts don’t vanish when they become inconvenient. Bummer, eh? Of course, you’ll note I already dealt with your (very clever, and totally unforeseen, dodge). > [@](#): > > Tell us more about how the “Zionist[s]” control/influence/other-weasel-word the “American news media” You are free to use any weasel word you’d like. We’re kinda used to it in GD. I find that “undue influence” tends to be the go-to option. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Instead, the corporate media reflect the biases of those who don’t know much about the history of this issue, and instead take sides with people who look, dress, and talk more like Americans. Mmmm hmmm. So you’re going with the “influence” dodge. That’s novel. And unexpected! As proven though, you know next to nothing on the issue. And evidently those pesky “Zionists” have a position based on facts. But care to explain exactly how it is that the “people who look, dress, and talk more like Americans” just happen to be the “Zionists” and not all the anti-Zionist white folks? (you are aware that American Jews/pro-Israel Americans are, ya know, Americans?) So care to explain the actual nature of this ‘influence’? And any single one of your, what, dozen+ factual errors? Just one, maybe? No? > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > I thought that citing Walt and Mearsheimer would save a lot of time. Yeah, citing discredited hack work is good policy. Being unable to defend a single one of your factual errors shows just how right you are, because only someone who’s wrong would back up their points. Any prestigious grad program that studies one International Affair would agree. In any case, you should read the name of the forum. It’s Great Debates, not Avoiding Debates By Name Dropping. I can see how you could’ve misread it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/83 "2013-06-25T22:15:17Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Maayyybe because Palestinians have never hesitated to kill Israeli children? > Or because Israel has offered, over & over, to live in peace with the Palestinians, only to be brutally rebuffed? > Or because the Palestinians have repeatedly attacked & killed unconnected third party nations, murdering their citizens or holding them hostage, merely to make a statement? > > To Hell with the Palestinians. If you’re going to scream about bigotry it’s best not to make bigoted comments. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/84 "2013-06-25T22:15:52Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Oh, and about WWII…Forces not only drafted by, but politically loyal to, Stalin and Mao (among other nefarious characters) did most of the fighting and dying. This does not indicate equivalency, but it does put it in perspective. “Forces…politically loyal to” _Stalin_? I must’ve missed the part where Stalin in 1941 called for his countrymen to demonstrate their political loyalty to him, instead of the reality of his declaring a “national patriotic war” against Germany. > [@](#): > > I thought that citing Walt and Mearsheimer would save a lot of time. Actually you didn’t cite them, just mentioned their names as a sort of incantation. You’ll need to do better than that. Just pretend we’re the faculty committee of a legitimate university hearing your Masters’ presentation, and post accordingly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/85 "2013-06-25T22:26:17Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > So did you miss my post entirely? And yes, most people do lack information. In fact, most don’t have a clue. They only get the Zionist side of the story from the American news media, as well as decades of Hollywood-fueled anti-Arab racism. > > Speaking of which: [www.ifamericansknew.org](http://www.ifamericansknew.org) The Director of the organization you’re quoting claims that Israeli soldiers were killing Palestinian children and dragging away their bodies to harvest their organs. She also claims that the “Blood libel” the idea that medieval Jews kidnapped and murdered Christian children to make Matzoh “has a basis in fact”? She strikes me as a rather untrustworthy source. Please explain why you think someone who makes claims like that isn’t a kook? Also, do you believe that Israel is killing Palestinian children to harvest their organs and do you believe that “the blood libel” had “some basis in fact”? Finally, where are you getting your Masters because its hard to a place thats as “well-regarded” as you call it, would allow the use of such kooky sources? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/86 "2013-06-25T22:27:22Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Just pretend we’re the faculty committee of a legitimate university hearing your Masters’ presentation Except we’re not ideologically tied to any positions in order to get tenure. Also, we’ve got snark down to a science. (I have an M.S. in Snark Studies) > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Finally, where are you getting your Masters because its hard to a place thats as “well-regarded” as you call it, would allow the use of such kooky sources? American University. I really hadn’t heard of their program, but any graduate program that can confer a degree on someone whose focus is the I/P issue, but who doesn’t know that Egypt’s blockade in '67 was an act of war? Well… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/87 "2013-06-26T00:09:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Director of the organization you’re quoting claims that Israeli soldiers were killing Palestinian children and dragging away their bodies to harvest their organs. > > She also claims that the “Blood libel” the idea that medieval Jews kidnapped and murdered Christian children to make Matzoh “has a basis in fact”? > > She strikes me as a rather untrustworthy source. From Alison Weir’s website: > [@](#): > > Swedish 19-year-old Tove Johansson was attacked while the Israeli military stood by. Chanting “We killed Jesus, we’ll kill you too,” members of the mob broke her cheekbone and spat on her. Does anyone outside of the Aryan demographic really think a bunch of Jews were chanting about how they killed Jesus as they attacked a young blonde maiden? eta: To avoid confusion, let me point out that this Alison Weir (an American) is not the same Alison Weir as the British author. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/88 "2013-06-26T00:12:50Z")
> [@](#): > > "We killed Jesus, we’ll kill you too Few people realize that this is what the Brandeis University cheerleaders chant at home football games. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/89 "2013-06-26T00:20:08Z")
> **[ItemFix - Social Video Factory](https://www.itemfix.com/?r=ll)** > > Social Video Factory > [@Kid](#): > > I Picture a dead arab, and that makes me happy ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/90 "2013-06-26T00:48:44Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Canada and other places ended slavery without a war. The slave trade had been stopped, and thus every escaped slave was a blow to the Southern economy. Expanded abolitionist activism could probably have changed the trickle into a flood. In any case, abolition was not the reason the North went to war. Canada and other places were in very different circumstances than the U.S. was. It wasn’t ending here without a war. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > True, but they among others have a better case than European Zionist Jews. Based on what? Israel has both a legal claim (UN, remember?), and defense of the land. What case trumps that? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/91 "2013-06-26T00:49:42Z")
Thank you for the relevant and informative cite newcomer. Oh, no, wait, the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/92 "2013-06-26T01:39:12Z")
**ENOUGH!** No sane person is unaware that there is a lot of hatred in that region and that many people who live there are going to express that hatred, (based on their reactions to previous events or fears of future ones). Those personal expressions are not the topic of this thread. Adding one’s own personal expressions of hatred are not germane to the thread. Any future expressions of delight regarding suffering imposed on anyone or out-of-context references to the hatred that the local people express will be deemed to be trolling. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/93 "2013-06-26T02:16:19Z")
I take you didn’t like the link I posted. Funny how I see almost half of this thread so far to be, and I’m quoting, “expressions of delight regarding suffering imposed on anyone” but you waited for, and I’m quoting, "out-of-context references to the hatred that the local people express " to moderate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/94 "2013-06-26T02:30:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Based on what? Israel has both a legal claim (UN, remember?), and defense of the land. What case trumps that? There’s also the case that historically the Jews were there before the Christians or the Muslims. Or that Israel is a democratic country unlike most of the other countries in the region. Or that at this point, six decades after the founding of the State of Israel, most of the native born people from Israel are the Israelis and most of the Palestinians who claim it’s their country and want to “return” were actually born in another country. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/95 "2013-06-26T02:49:18Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I take you didn’t like the link I posted. > > Funny how I see almost half of this thread so far to be, and I’m quoting, “expressions of delight regarding suffering imposed on anyone” but you waited for, and I’m quoting, "out-of-context references to the hatred that the local people express " to moderate. And I told EVERYONE to stop. You did happen to be the poster with the most off-topic post, but my message was not directed to you, alone. Now drop it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/96 "2013-06-26T03:34:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There’s also the case that historically the Jews were there before the Christians or the Muslims. Or that Israel is a democratic country unlike most of the other countries in the region. Or that at this point, six decades after the founding of the State of Israel, most of the native born people from Israel are the Israelis and most of the Palestinians who claim it’s their country and want to “return” were actually born in another country. Can you provide an explanaton for your claim that “most of the native born people from Israel are Israelis”. For starters, even today around 30% of all Israeli Jews are “Olim” meaning Jewish immigrants to Israel while just 70% were “Sabras” meaning Jews born Israel. Moreover, I think, and people are free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I think as late as 1990 most Israeli Jews were “Olim”. In fact, during the entire 20th Century, Israel had exactly two Prime Ministers who were born in Israel(Rabin and Netanyahu). Now, roughly 20% of the citizens of Israel are “Arabs” who, by law, can’t be Jews. It seems to me, that, at best only about 50% of all Israeli citizens are “Jews born in Israel”. Now, if you ask about the population of Israel, the situation gets even trickier. The Israeli government over the past several decades has repeatedly insisted that “the Occupied territories” are not “occupied” and that they are in fact “part of Israel”. The Israeli government has insisted that it’s border is “the Jordan River” and has repeatedly insisted that all maps produced by the Israeli government, including those by the Israeli tourist bureau portray the West Bank as being part of Israel. In fact, Israeli military censors have gone so far as to insist the foreign newspapers printed in Israel(such as the Hebrew language version of _The New York Times_) not have the green line on their maps of Israel. Obviously, to a certain extent this was done because otherwise Israel would have to admit they were engaging in war crimes since placing settlements in “occupied territories” is a violation of international law. In short, most of the people born in the Occupied territories were born when the Israeli government insisted that they were “part of Israel” and with the exception of the tiny percentage who are “settlers” or “illegal immigrants” if you want to insist that the West Bank isn’t part of Israel, then it seems to the overwhelming majority of the population of Israel are either Jews born outside of Israel, or Arabs. Or, of course, you can insist that the Occupied territories weren’t part of Israel, but that means you’d have to concede Israel was engaged in war crimes by placing settlers in occupied territories and even then, it’s only recently that as much as 50% of the population of “Israel”(and keep in mind the current PM of Israel would object to your definition) are “Jews born in Israel”. As for the Palestinians, genetic tests have verified that they and the Israel Jews are cousins and are both genetic descendants of the original Jews. Sadly the story of the conflict has no clear “good guys” and no clear “bad guys” but is a case of a struggle between two people with huge victim complexes and were victims quite easily become victimizers. Sadly enough, with few exceptions most the non-Arabs, non-Muslims, and non-Jews who love to proclaim on this matter tend to fall into three categories. A) Europeans who attack Israel because they see it as a relic of colonialism which they have different reactions to than Americans for obvious reasons. B)Islamophobes who see Israelis as a Western outpost against the Muslim/Arab/THEM horde coming for their white daughters. C)People who really love to sock it to the Jews. Most of this group when asked even basic questions of Palestinian history or about atrocities committed against Palestinians by non-Jews immediately get look on their face similar to those of a bull about to be rendered a steer. > [@](#): > > There’s also the case that historically the Jews were there before the Christians or the Muslims. Genetic testing proves this to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/97 "2013-06-26T03:37:14Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Knock it off. Will do. However, I’d like to ask **OLP** (for the last time in this thread) if he/she would care to back up any of the assertions he/she made with citations. If he/she would prefer, I’d be happy to provide cites for all of my claims, and he/she can then put forward his/her own cited counter-arguments. I contend that **OLP** ’s narrative is virtually fact-free. I would invite **OLP** , one final time to defend her/his position, or at least challenge specific arguments of mine with more than a veritable “nuh uhnnn!”. If **OLP** can not or will not engage in any actual form of debate, I think it’s rather clear what the strength of his/her position is. Short of that, I don’t have all that much to add in response to the OP other than what **Malthus** already said. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/98 "2013-06-26T13:23:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > There’s also the case that historically the Jews were there before the Christians or the Muslims. > > Genetic testing proves this to be wrong. The rest of your post was quite good, but I didn’t get this part. AFAIK, Christianity was founded somewhere around AD 34-60, depending on how you calculate it, and Islam dates from AD 622. The Romans conquered Israel in (I think) 63 BC, but that would imply that there were Jews in the area to be conquered. And of course the Persian era dates from several hundred years earlier. So I am not sure how genetic tests could distinguish Jews from Christians/Muslims in the area, when Islam and Christianity had yet to be founded. What am I missing? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/99 "2013-06-26T14:37:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The rest of your post was quite good, but I didn’t get this part. AFAIK, Christianity was founded somewhere around AD 34-60, depending on how you calculate it, and Islam dates from AD 622. The Romans conquered Israel in (I think) 63 BC, but that would imply that there were Jews in the area to be conquered. And of course the Persian era dates from several hundred years earlier. So I am not sure how genetic tests could distinguish Jews from Christians/Muslims in the area, when Islam and Christianity had yet to be founded. What am I missing? > > Regards, > Shodan I was referring to genetic testing of the Palestinian Christians and Muslims show they, like the Jews, are descendants of the origininal inhabitants. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/100 "2013-06-26T14:49:52Z")
The people who tend to live in the area have generally been the people who had always lived in the area. The Christians are the descendants of Jews, (or Samarians or Canaanites or whoever), who happened to have converted to Christianity at some point. The Muslims are the descendants (generally), of the Christians (who were already the descendants of Jews, Canaanites, etc.), along with some Jews who converted to Islam. Just who was a “Jew” between 722 B.C.E. and 70 C.E. fluctuated back and forth according to which large neighbor was conquering the region at any given time. Ezra was dealing with those fluctuations in population as early as 458 B.C.E. That trend continued after the various Roman rebellions, as well. There has been a certain amount of Arab movement into the region following the seventh century, (and a small percentage of European/Christian migration in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries), but Islam arrived as much by conversion as migration. In general, the same people have lived on the same land, with changes in religion as the political winds have shifted, throughout the centuries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512.md?page=6)