# Palestinian Children Tortured, Used As Shields By Israel, UN Says **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512 "2013-06-20T21:49:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/101 "2013-06-26T14:56:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Can you provide an explanaton for your claim that “most of the native born people from Israel are Israelis”. > > For starters, even today around 30% of all Israeli Jews are “Olim” meaning Jewish immigrants to Israel while just 70% were “Sabras” meaning Jews born Israel. > > Moreover, I think, and people are free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I think as late as 1990 most Israeli Jews were “Olim”. But as I pointed out, Israel became a country in 1948 and the Palestinian exodus occurred that same year. So after sixty-five years, how many Palestinians are there still living who were part of that exodus? Most Palestinians who are calling for a return to their homeland have never lived in that homeland. They’re people who were born in other countries who claim a right to a homeland because their ancestors used to live there. And who does that sound like? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/102 "2013-06-26T15:07:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The people who tend to live in the area have generally been the people who had always lived in the area. The Christians are the descendants of Jews, (or Samarians or Canaanites or whoever), who happened to have converted to Christianity at some point. The Muslims are the descendants (generally), of the Christians (who were already the descendants of Jews, Canaanites, etc.), along with some Jews who converted to Islam. > > Just who was a “Jew” between 722 B.C.E. and 70 C.E. fluctuated back and forth according to which large neighbor was conquering the region at any given time. Ezra was dealing with those fluctuations in population as early as 458 B.C.E. That trend continued after the various Roman rebellions, as well. There has been a certain amount of Arab movement into the region following the seventh century, (and a small percentage of European/Christian migration in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries), but Islam arrived as much by conversion as migration. > > In general, the same people have lived on the same land, with changes in religion as the political winds have shifted, throughout the centuries. I’ve never really looked into this question (in part because, in the specific case of Israel/Palestine, it is so highly politicized that wading through the stuff put out by partisans of one side or another strikes me as too much effort), but to my mind this seems highly unlikely. We know that this area was subject to periodic invasions, massacres, mass displacements such as the Roman one, and influx of new arrivals. While certainly some people now living there would be able to trace a certain percentage of their ancestry back to a common ancestor living in the same place, I would imagine that they would also have common ancestors living all over the place as well - Crusaders, Romans, Arabs, Turks … ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/103 "2013-06-26T15:11:31Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > SThey only get the Zionist side of the story from the American news media, as well as decades of Hollywood-fueled anti-Arab racism. And the true colors come out. It’s the fault of the Jews that control the media. If only they’d just stop reporting the atrocities done in the name of Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/104 "2013-06-26T15:31:24Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > No, the Israelis started the war of 1967. It was a war of choice, and Menachem Begin admitted it in the early 1980s. Starting with the USS Liberty conspiracy theory was bad enough, but this is pure nonsense. Israel preemptively started the '67 war, the other ‘choice’ was to allow their neighbors to start it. Egypt and Syria were going to go to war with Israel in 1967 no matter what, there was no choice in the war happening or not. From [The Encyclopedia of Military History from 3500 B.C. to the Present, 2nd Revised Edition](http://www.amazon.com/dp/0061812358), R. Ernest Dupuy and Trevor N. Dupuy: > [@](#): > > A chronology of prewar events follows: > [ul] > [li]May 16 Egypt declared a state of emergency.[/li][li]May 17 Egypt and Syria announced “combat readiness” and Jordan announced mobilization.[/li][li]May 19 UNEF withdrawal.[/li][li]May 20 Israel completed partial mobilization.[/li][li]May 23 Saudi Arabian forces prepared to participate.[/li][li]May 24 Jordanian mobilization completed.[/li][li]May 28 Sudan mobilized.[/li][li]May 29 Algerian units moved to Egypt.[/li][li]May 30 Egypt and Jordan sign mutual security treaty.[/li][li]May 31 Iraqi troops begin moving to Jordan.[/li][/ul]Israel had earlier announced that it would go to war under any of the following conditions: closing of the Strait of Tiran; sending of Iraqi troops to Jordan; signing of an Egyptian-Jordanian defence pact; withdrawal of UNEF forces. All of these conditions now existed. War thus was inevitable, although Nassar surprisingly did not think his actions would provoke an Israeli attack. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/105 "2013-06-26T16:09:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’ve never really looked into this question (in part because, in the specific case of Israel/Palestine, it is so highly politicized that wading through the stuff put out by partisans of one side or another strikes me as too much effort), but to my mind this seems highly unlikely. We know that this area was subject to periodic invasions, massacres, mass displacements such as the Roman one, and influx of new arrivals. > > While certainly some people now living there would be able to trace a certain percentage of their ancestry back to a common ancestor living in the same place, I would imagine that they would also have common ancestors living all over the place as well - Crusaders, Romans, Arabs, Turks … I recall a number of expulsions; I do not really recall any mass migrations into the region. Regardless, to the extent that the population of “native” inhabitants is mixed, it is mixed pretty thoroughly among all the current groups. There is no strong record of separate groups moving into the region, then cloistering themselves so that they remained a wholly separate people. Similarly, there is no record that any “original” group has failed to intermarry with (or convert to the religions of) other peoples living in the region. The point was that there is no basis to believe that the “original” Jews and Canaanites have managed to live side by side for 3,000 years without a lot of intermingling. However many invasions have occurred, the mixture has tended to occur across the board. The cultural lines that are closely bound to religion have waxed and waned as the power of different religious beliefs have waxed and waned, with some portion of the population simply converting to the “other” culture/religion when it became expedient. It is more than probable that there is nearly as much “Jewish” ancestry (dating to pre-Roman times) among the Palestinians as there is among the Jews. [The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians](http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/106 "2013-06-26T17:07:13Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Israel preemptively started the '67 war, the other ‘choice’ was to allow their neighbors to start it. I do have to quibble with this: Israel started shooting, Egypt started the war. Your timeline is missing May 22nd when Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran against Israeli shipping. Blockades, while legal under the laws and customs of maritime warfare, are still an act of war. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/107 "2013-06-26T18:07:54Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I recall a number of expulsions; I do not really recall any mass migrations into the region. The Romans imported Roman settlers (indeed for a while Jerusalem was renamed Alia Capitolina and resettled as a Roman colony, with the original inhabitants forbidden to enter it): > **[Aelia Capitolina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelia_Capitolina)** > > Aelia Capitolina (Latin: Colonia Aelia Capitolina \[kɔˈloːni.a ˈae̯li.a kapɪtoːˈliːna\]) was a Roman colony founded during the Roman emperor Hadrian's visit to Judaea in 129/130 CE. It was founded on the ruins of Jerusalem, which had been almost totally razed after the siege of 70 CE. This act marked a significant transformation of the city from a Jewish metropolis to a small pagan settlement dedicated to the cult of Capitoline Jupiter. > The population of Aelia Capitolina consisted primarily of Ro... During the Byzantine period, what is now Israel was simply a province of the empire. This province was then conquored by the Arabs, who added their own mix. The Crusaders massacred the population of Jerusalem (again), but of course they did not kill everyone - but added their own mix to the locals. They in turn suffered massacre, enslavement and expulsion at the hands of the Mamluks, whose imperium fell under the sway of the Ottomans. > [@](#): > > Regardless, to the extent that the population of “native” inhabitants is mixed, it is mixed pretty thoroughly among all the current groups. There is no strong record of separate groups moving into the region, then cloistering themselves so that they remained a wholly separate people. No question. Other than (say) exclusive religious groups like the Druze. > [@](#): > > Similarly, there is no record that any “original” group has failed to intermarry with (or convert to the religions of) other peoples living in the region. Again, with certain exceptions. Remember, there exists remains of Samaritans and Jews still existing as seperate groups in the region, who presumably resisted conversion. Some Palestinians of Nabulus claim descent from the Samaritans. > **[Samaritans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Modern_times)** > > Samaritans (/səˈmærɪtənz/; Samaritan Hebrew: ࠔࠠࠌࠝࠓࠩࠉࠌ‎ Šā̊merīm; Hebrew: שומרונים Šōmrōnīm; Arabic: السامريون as-Sāmiriyyūn), often preferring to be called Israelite Samaritans, are an ethnoreligious group originating from the Hebrews and Israelites of the ancient Near East. They are indigenous to Samaria, a historical region of ancient Israel and Judah that comprises the northern half of what is today referred to as the West Bank. They are adherents of Samaritanism, an Abrahamic, monotheistic The Samaritans also bolster their case with genetic studies, the content of which I am unqualified to assess. > [@](#): > > Recently several genetic studies on Samaritan population were made using haplogroup comparisons as well as wide-genome genetic studies. Of the 12 Samaritan males used in the analysis, 10 (83%) had Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup J, which includes three of the four Samaritan families. The Joshua-Marhiv family belongs to haplogroup J1, while the Danfi and Tsedakah families belong to haplogroup J2, and can be further distinguished by M67, the derived allele of which has been found in the Danfi family. The only Samaritan family not found in haplogroup J was the Cohen family (Tradition: Tribe of Levi) which was found in haplogroup E3b1a M78.[47] This article predated the change of the classification of haplogroup E3b1-M78 to E3b1a-M78 and the further subdivision of E3b1a-M78 into 6 subclades based on the research of Cruciani, et al.[48] > > The 2004 article on the genetic ancestry of the Samaritans by Shen et al. concluded from a sample comparing Samaritans to several Jewish populations, all currently living in Israel—representing Ethiopian Jews, Ashkenazi Jews, Iraqi Jews, Libyan Jews, Moroccan Jews, and Yemenite Jews, as well as Israeli Druze and Palestinian Arabs—that the principal components analysis suggested a common ancestry of Samaritan and Jewish patrilineages. Most of the former may be traced back to a common ancestor in what is today identified as the paternally inherited Israelite high priesthood (Cohanim) with a common ancestor projected to the time of the Assyrian conquest of the kingdom of Israel.[49] > > Archaeologists Aharoni, et al., estimated that this “exile of peoples to and from Israel under the Assyrians” took place during ca. 734 BCE to 712 BCE.[50] The authors speculated that when the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel, resulting in the exile of many of the Israelites, a subgroup of the Israelites that remained in the Land of Israel “married Assyrian and female exiles relocated from other conquered lands, which was a typical Assyrian policy to obliterate national identities.”[49] The study goes on to say that “Such a scenario could explain why Samaritan Y chromosome lineages cluster tightly with Jewish Y lineages, while their mitochondrial lineages are closest to Iraqi Jewish and Palestinian mtDNA sequences.” Non-Jewish Iraqis were not sampled in this study; however, mitochondrial lineages of Jewish communities tend to correlate with their non-Jewish host populations, unlike paternal lineages which almost always correspond to Israelite lineages. > > Genetic differences between the Samaritans and neighboring Jewish and non-Jewish populations are corroborated in that study of 7,280 bp of non-recombining Y-chromosome and 5,622 bp of coding and hypervariable segment (HVS-I) mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences. Comparative sequence analysis was carried out on 12 Samaritan Y-chromosome and mtDNA samples from 9 male and 7 female Samaritans separated by at least two generations.[citation needed] The four Samaritan families clustered to four distinct Y-chromosome haplogroups according to their patrilineal identity. Of the 16 Samaritan mtDNA samples, 14 carry either of two mitochondrial haplotypes that are rare or absent among other worldwide ethnic groups.[citation needed. These, therefore are in fact an example of a group cloistering itself as a seperate population - again, allegedly. > [@](#): > > The point was that there is no basis to believe that the “original” Jews and Canaanites have managed to live side by side for 3,000 years without a lot of intermingling. I would imagine they were pretty thorougly intermingled. > [@](#): > > However many invasions have occurred, the mixture has tended to occur across the board. The cultural lines that are closely bound to religion have waxed and waned as the power of different religious beliefs have waxed and waned, with some portion of the population simply converting to the “other” culture/religion when it became expedient. > > It is more than probable that there is nearly as much “Jewish” ancestry (dating to pre-Roman times) among the Palestinians as there is among the Jews. With this difference: those who remained may be more thoroughly mixed with waves of outsiders than those who left, who _did_ more or less hold themselves as a distinct, intermarrying group. For example, the Ashkenazim suffer from several genetic diseases as a result of continual intermarrying within the ethnicity. You see this with the Samaritans, who are genetically distinct from the other local inhabitants of what is now Israel, because they kept to themselves (while the other inhabitants did not). > [@](#): > > [The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians](http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html) Looks convincing, but again, I’m not really competent to assess it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/108 "2013-06-26T18:55:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Because a country that occasionally violates human rights is preferable to a country that routinely violates human rights. Which is which? > [@Lust4Life](#): > > And that’s why non Jews in the West tend to back the Israelis and not the people who send their own children to their deaths. :dubious: Outside of former british colonies, what part fo the “west” back the israelis? How about non-western industrialized nations? > [@tomndebb](#): > > **ENOUGH!** … > > Knock it off. > > [/Moderating] I don’t know why you don’t send every Israel thread to the pit. Half these threads either get locked or end up in the pit. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I do have to quibble with this: Israel started shooting, Egypt started the war. Your timeline is missing May 22nd when Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran against Israeli shipping. Blockades, while legal under the laws and customs of maritime warfare, are still an act of war. So was the blockade of Gaza was an act of war or are the rules different there? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/109 "2013-06-26T19:31:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So was the blockade of Gaza was an act of war or are the rules different there? Rather obviously, the issue is quite a bit more complicated than that. But as you’ve decided to take a discussion of the 1967 war and turn it into “But but but Gaza 2010!”… well, I’m not going to play. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/110 "2013-06-26T19:40:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I do have to quibble with this: Israel started shooting, Egypt started the war. Your timeline is missing May 22nd when Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran against Israeli shipping. Blockades, while legal under the laws and customs of maritime warfare, are still an act of war. I don’t disagree with you; while the date of the closing of the Straits of Tiran isn’t listed specifically in the timeline it is listed as one of the four conditions that Israel announced it would go to war under, all of which now existed. A blockade is an act of war, but there is some squirreliness and wiggle room about it; the US set up a naval blockade of Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis but I doubt you’d say the US started a war with Cuba and the USSR in 1963. A naval blockade certainly is _casus belli_ and as I said Syria and Egypt were going to go to war with Israel in 1967 regardless of Israel’s actions and as we both agree calling it a war of choice by Israel is palpably absurd. In any event, when your neighbor with whom you’ve had continued low level hostilities with and two full blown wars with in as many decades lists four actions any of which it will consider to be _casus belli_ and you proceed to do not one but all four actions it’s kind of hard to look like an innocent party even if Egypt wasn’t already planning to go to war. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/111 "2013-06-26T19:48:55Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Rather obviously, the issue is quite a bit more complicated than that. > But as you’ve decided to take a discussion of the 1967 war and turn it into “But but but Gaza 2010!”… well, I’m not going to play. Well, you understand this stuff a lot better than I do and if even you have trouble making any sense of it then maybe things aren’t as clear to people like me as you think they are. eta: or would the explanation reveal too many flaws in your defense of Israel? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/112 "2013-06-26T20:19:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > eta: or would the explanation reveal too many flaws in your defense of Israel? Yeah, definitely not about to play your game. Have a good day. > [@Dissonance](#): > > ditions that Israel announced it would go to war under, all of which now existed. A blockade is an act of war, but there is some squirreliness and wiggle room about it; the US set up a naval blockade of Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis but I doubt you’d say the US started a war with Cuba and the USSR in 1963. Well, Cuba, yes. If Cuba had wanted to say that we’d started a war, I think they’d have been justified. The USSR is a bit trickier, but it’s worth noting that the blockade nearly lead to WWIII. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/113 "2013-06-26T20:34:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, you understand this stuff a lot better than I do and if even you have trouble making any sense of it then maybe things aren’t as clear to people like me as you think they are. > > eta: or would the explanation reveal too many flaws in your defense of Israel? I’m not sure how anyone, reading about the events that lead up to the '67 War, could reasonably conclude that this war was a war of aggression by Israel. This isn’t a defense, it is just facts. In contrast, the '56 War was a war of aggression by Israel (in cahoots with the UK and France). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/114 "2013-06-26T20:40:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In contrast, the '56 War was a war of aggression by Israel (in cahoots with the UK and France). Yeah, we gave in to peer pressure on that one. The cool kids said that they’d let us hang out with them if we gave them a hand, and we went along. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/115 "2013-06-26T21:57:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yeah, definitely not about to play your game. > Have a good day. Come on, you know you want to.😃 > [@](#): > > Well, Cuba, yes. If Cuba had wanted to say that we’d started a war, I think they’d have been justified. The USSR is a bit trickier, but it’s worth noting that the blockade nearly lead to WWIII. So can Gaza say that Israel has started a war? Or is Gaza part of Israel? Or is it left deliberately in some limbo that allows them to be abused while treating their response to the abuse as terrorism? JAQ I look forward to your enlightening response. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/116 "2013-06-27T00:10:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not sure how anyone, reading about the events that lead up to the '67 War, could reasonably conclude that this war was a war of aggression by Israel. That’s why I’m somewhat surprised that the only person in this thread who claims to have an advanced degree that focused on this exact subject, provided a narrative that was counter-factual and hasn’t bothered to defend it besides dropping two names and calling it a day. Ah well, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/117 "2013-06-27T17:56:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Come on, you know you want to.😃 > > So can Gaza say that Israel has started a war? Or is Gaza part of Israel? Or is it left deliberately in some limbo that allows them to be abused while treating their response to the abuse as terrorism? JAQ > > I look forward to your enlightening response. I believe it’s illegal to blockade one’s own country or a part of it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/118 "2013-06-27T18:34:03Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Israel has no intrinsic right to exist, or a “legitimate claim” as you put it. Then no country does. A nation-state is an active exercise in the will of its participants. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/119 "2013-06-27T18:43:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Come on, you know you want to.😃 > > So can Gaza say that Israel has started a war? Or is Gaza part of Israel? Or is it left deliberately in some limbo that allows them to be abused while treating their response to the abuse as terrorism? JAQ > > I look forward to your enlightening response. I’ll bite. The measures taken against Gaza are complicated by the fact of Gaza’s non-statehood. What Gaza is depends on who you ask, and for what purpose. Some contend that Gaza remains “occupied” by Israel, but this is generally for the purpose of asserting that Israel has the duties established under international law incumbent on “occupying powers”. It is not, I would imagine, a statement that Israel literally occupies Gaza, given that Gaza is in point of fact ruled with an iron fist by Hamas, an organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Naturally, it is Israel’s contention that Gaza is not occupied by it, and that the government of Gaza is an enemy whith whom they have gone to war. The Gaza War of 2008-2009 “ended”, as it were, with mutual unilateral ceasefires rather than a peace treaty - a peace treaty with Hamas is impossible as Hamas does not recogize that peace with Israel is possible. This complication was swept aside by the UN Panel tasked with figuring out the rights and wrongs of the Mavi Marmara affair. While critical of Israeli actions, they did find that the blockade itself was “legal” under international law (for what it’s worth). Reason: whatever Gaza is, it is clear they and Israel are in a de facto war (if under “unilateral ceasefire” at the time) and that Gaza is a de facto state. Text is from the UN Palmer Report, which is found online in PDF form: > [@](#): > > 1. The Panel notes in this regard that the uncertain legal status of Gaza under international law cannot mean that Israel has no right to self-defence against armed attacks directed toward its territory.255 The Israeli report to the Panel makes it clear that the naval blockade as a measure of the use of force was adopted for the purpose of defending its territory and population,256 and the Panel accepts that was the case. It was designed as one way to prevent weapons reaching Gaza by sea and to prevent such attacks to be launched from the sea.257 Indeed there have been various incidents in which ships carrying weapons were intercepted by the Israeli authorities on their way to Gaza.258 While the attacks have not completely ceased since the time of the imposition of > the naval blockade,259 their scale and intensity has much decreased over time.260 While this decrease might also be due to other factors,261 a blockade in those circumstances is a legitimate exercise of the right of self-defence. Although a blockade by definition imposes a restriction on all maritime traffic, given the relatively small size of the blockade zone and the practical difficulties associated with other methods of monitoring vessels (such as by search and visit),262 the Panel is not persuaded that the naval blockade was a disproportionate measure for Israel to have taken in response to the threat it faced. > 2. The Panel now turns to consider whether the other components of a lawful > blockade under international law are met. Traditionally, naval blockades have most > commonly been imposed in situations where there is an international armed conflict. While it is uncontested that there has been protracted violence taking the form of an armed conflict between Israel and armed groups in Hamas-controlled Gaza, the characterization of this conflict as international is disputed.263 The conclusion of the Panel in this regard rests upon the facts as they exist on the ground. The specific circumstances of Gaza are unique and are not replicated anywhere in the world. Nor are they likely to be. Gaza and Israel are both distinct territorial and political areas. Hamas is the de facto political and administrative authority in Gaza and to a large extent has control over events on the ground there.264 It is Hamas that is firing the projectiles into Israel or is permitting others to do so.265 The Panel considers the conflict should be treated as an international one for the purposes of the law of blockade. This takes foremost into account Israel’s right to self-defence against armed attacks from outside its > territory. In this context, the debate on Gaza’s status, in particular its relationship to Israel, should not obscure the realities. The law does not operate in a political vacuum, and it is implausible to deny that the nature of the armed violence between Israel and Hamas goes beyond purely domestic matters. In fact, it has all the trappings of an international armed conflict. This conclusion goes no further than is necessary for the Panel to carry out its mandate. What other implications may or may not flow from it are not before us, even though the Panel is mindful that under the law of armed conflict a State can hardly rely on some of its provisions but not pay heed to others. So to answer: yes, a blockade is, in general, an act justifying war; in this case, there existed a war; the blockade is “legal” as long as it does not go too far. Some commentators disputed the Panel’s findings on this point, mostly by stating that the Panel ignored the fact that Hamas had declared a cease-fire, and that the blockade was in any case “disproportionate”. For example: > **[The legal flaws of the Palmer Commission flotilla report](https://richardfalk.org/2011/09/13/the-legal-flaws-of-the-palmer-commission-flotilla-report/)** > > The post below is jointly written with Phyllis Bennis, outstanding  journalist, author, and public intellectual who long been concerned with Israel/Palestine conflict, as well as more generally wit… Naturally this appears bizzare and unworldly from the non-anti-Israeli perspective. Why on earth should the Israelis, or UN, or international law, or _anyone_, put any reliance whatsoever on a purely self-serving “unilateral cease-fire” that allows the avowed enemy to rearm for the next round? War isn’t subject to self-announced “time outs, I’m getting beat” like that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512/120 "2013-06-27T20:51:00Z")
First I spent the evening following the Wendy Davis story, and then I had to deal with a loss of electricity. So, Finn, I notice that you’re now doing what you accuse me of doing, i.e. hiding from a point I can’t refute. You won’t play the game with Damuri? No? First of all, I notice that you’re trying to get me to say something anti-Jewish. Take the media. I don’t think that there’s some cabal of Jews running the media, nor do I think it’s just a demographic circumstance. Instead, the American news coverage reflects the (very common) prejudices towards those who seem more like Americans, and/or who are portrayed by foreign-policy elites as allies. This also colors the behavior of the foreign-policy community, and of the ruling classes in general. It’s Orientalism, in other words. In the great book Beneath the United States, the author states plainly that U.S. governments and the agents thereof have never thought of Latin Americans as equals. He contrasts it with U.S.-France relations. It’s the same thing. U.S. policy in the Middle East isn’t much different than U.S. policy elsewhere. This is where I disagree with Walt and Mearsheimer, and in fact that’s what I wrote about. The Israel Lobby is one hell of a thing, as anyone can see in this thread, but they don’t make policy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-says/661512.md?page=7)