# Palestinian scum **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 2, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186 "2004-05-02T21:15:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/181 "2004-05-04T19:42:52Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > > [@Shayna](#): > > > > The Palestinians have been historically opressing and murdering Jews for centuries > > Chronologies, please! Cities! Dates! Numbers dead! Fucking bloodspatter patterns, if you got 'em. Back this claim up! I GAVE them to you once already in THIS VERY THREAD, you lying, disingenous, pompous sack of shit. You deride people for supposedly not reading your links, yet I post not only links to back up my numbers, but THE ACTUAL NUMBERS THEMSELVES and you have the utter _audacity_ to ask for a cite? You are a LIAR because you do not WANT the truth, in spite of claims to the contrary. I know this because when you’re presented with the truth you IGNORE it and then go off twisting it to suit your hateful agenda. Like I said before **FUCK OFF** Shayna, on behalf of the **Massacred** Jewish community in Basra in 1776, the **Hundreds** killed in the pogrom of 1785, the **Several hundred** Jews who were murdered during the “Black Sabbath” massacre in 1805, the **Falsely arrested and Tortured** Jews in Damascus in 1840, the \*\*60 Jewish CHILDREN who were STARVED \*\* to extract false “confessions,” the **Thousands** herded into ghettos in Morocco in 1808, leading to similar treatment throughout the Arab world, the **43 Murdered** Jews during the pogrom of 1921, orchestrated by the first leader of the Palestinian national movement, the **133 Killed and 399 Wounded and the survivors forced to flee** Hebron in the 1929 Arab-run pogroms, just to name a few. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/182 "2004-05-04T19:56:31Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Actually, you live in California. MY PEOPLE live in Israel. “WE,” the Jews, live in Israel. Get the fuck over it. > [@Neruotik](#): > > No, actually, you’re pretty much completely incorrect. There had been no real organized violence against the Jews in the Middle East until the British decided after WWI that Palestine (Part of Transjordan at the time) would be turned over to the Jews, rather than the Arabs who had lived there for 1,500 years. > > And there was no real collusion with Hitler in terms of exterminating Jews in the Middle East. No Jews were shipped off to death camps in the region or anything. The Arabs were indeed sympathetic to Hitler and supported Germany rather than Britain, but that was the result of 20 years of broken British promises and colonialism along with the perception that the Zionist Jews were attempting to take control of their land (which they were). > > Maybe you should actually learn the history of the region, instead of just spouting off typical Israeli spin comments. You are WRONG. And you’re too stupid for me to waste my time explaining why (though you could bother to look up at my previous post for some examples), and the fact that you should know better makes you a fucking liar, too. It is _YOU_ who should actually bother to learn the history of the region instead of just spouting off typical anti-Semitic hate. Fucking Prick. And people wonder why we’re pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/183 "2004-05-04T20:03:12Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > His vitriol and cavalier attitudes toward Israeli citizens in this thread are so repugnant to this anti-Zionist that I’m staying the hell away from the thread, other than these quick comments. Oh, no you don’t. Where is this vitriol and cavalier attitude? I keep seeing references to it, but no actual cites. > [@](#): > > It’s only logical to expect that, when you wish eternal damnation on Israel’s original settlers, you’re going to drive away potential allies. OK, point. That was a pretty vitriolic statement, though it was directed more at **FinnAgain** and his relatives for being proud of starting a fifty-year-long war rather than Zionist settlers as a whole. I don’t wish them eternal damnation - how could I, if I don’t believe Hell (or Heaven, or God and the Devil) doesn’t exist? I find their actions abhorrent, and just as morally bankrupt as **FinnAgain** and the pro-Israeli crowd here paints the terrorist acts of the Palestinians today. > [@](#): > > I support the right of Jews to live on that plot of land; I support the right of Muslims to live on that plot of land; I support the right of Unitarian Pagan vegan polygamists to live on that plot of land. Same here. > [@](#): > > I abhor the tactics anyone on that plot of land use that predictably result in the deaths of civilians. Which the Israelis are no strangers to - for example, the pacification of Gaza. The 15 massacres, including Deir Yassein, between 1948 and 1950. And so on, and so forth. > [@GaWd](#): > > There was land offered to Israel. They have taken more land as a result of defending themselves in many Israeli-Arab wars. Just like any other imperialist nation would do. If Canada attacked us and we won, you bet your ass there’d be some expansion to preserve the safety of the US. Yeah, and you can bet your ass I’d be out there protesting that imperialist expansion as well. > [@GaWd](#): > > America does it [defends itself] even to this day. The Romans and Greeks and Persians and Russians and almost every single empire has. Why is it that you’re not yelling about them? > > > [@Olentzero](#): > > > > Because this is a thread about Israel, not about imperialism in general. > > That’s not what I said, and you know it. Disingenuous fuck. What did you say, then? You seemed to be asking why I wasn’t as vehement about other countries’ imperialism in this thread. What were you asking? > [@](#): > > So you somehow see a difference between “deserving” it and it being a “logical consequence”? Yes, I do. “Deserving” is a moral judgement, and “logical consequences” are a product of analysis and thought. Do I think Israel’s children deserve to die today because of the injustice their grandparents perpetrated, or because of the further injustices their government perpetrates today? Absolutely not. But an unstable, violent situation in which the risk of their dying is increased is a logical long-term consequence of the violent foundation of the state of Israel and a logical short-term consequence of the continued oppression of Palestinians by that selfsame state. **Shayna** , you indeed gave two examples of twentieth-century massacres in Palestine which I fully admit I did not remember reading. The other examples in your signature, however, are from other countries - Basra being in Iraq, Damascus in Syria, Algiers and Morocco on the other side of Africa. Your claim is that Palestinians have been massacring Jews for centuries - and 176 killed in an eight-year period, though detestable, doesn’t back that claim up. I don’t deny anti-Semitic bigotry, and I detest it just as much as any other racially motivated hatred. But it’s nowhere near a complete explanation of why there is so much antipathy towards Israel in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/184 "2004-05-04T20:05:14Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > I don’t wish them eternal damnation - how could I, if I don’t believe Hell (or Heaven, or God and the Devil) doesn’t exist? Blerrrgh yet again. That should read “how could I, if I don’t believe Hell… exists?” I’m an atheist. Just to clarify. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/185 "2004-05-04T20:09:14Z")
Originally posted by **Olentzero** > [@](#): > > _I want proof that Yassin, or Arafat, or Rantisi, or any one of the contemporary Arab leaders, said “We’ll kill them all” when asked what they would plan to do if Israel granted them unconditional right of return. I mean, it is one of their demands, isn’t it?_ [Here ya go:](http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Palestinian_TV_Kill_All_The_Jews.asp) \* Following are excerpts from a sermon given Friday, October 13, in the Zayed bin Sultan Aal Nahyan mosque in Gaza, broadcast live on the official Palestinian Authority television. The speaker is Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Member of the PA appointed “Futwa Council” and former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza:\* \*\* "Even if an agreement of Gaza is signed – we shall not forget Haifa, and Acre, and the Galilee, and Jaffa, and the Triangle and the Negev, and the rest of our cities and villages. It is only a matter of time.\*\* AND: \*\*"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/186 "2004-05-04T20:09:33Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > I don’t deny anti-Semitic bigotry… And **this** , before any of you start in on it, should read “I don’t deny the existence of anti-Semitic bigotry, in the Middle East or anywhere else…” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/187 "2004-05-04T20:09:56Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Oh, no you don’t. Where is this vitriol and cavalier attitude? I keep seeing references to it, but no actual cites…OK, point. That was a pretty vitriolic statement So I’m curious–do you write your posts by stream-of-consciousness? Did you respond to the first sentence before reading the second sentence? If not, after conceding that you’d made a pretty vitriolic statement, why the hell didn’t you go back and delete your first three sentences? Incidentally, the fact that you don’t believe in hell hardly lessens the vitriol of that shit I referred to. Logical consequences, man. You unnecessarily isolate yourself from potential allies. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/188 "2004-05-04T20:14:39Z")
The demand for right of return doesn’t apply only to the Gaza Strip, **gum**. It applies to the whole of Israel. You’ll be able to find countless speeches similar to the one you linked to, spouting fire and brimstone and blood against those they rightly perceive as their oppressors. I want to see proof positive that they swear to continue the fight to exterminate every last Jew from Palestine even if the unconditional right to return is granted, and Israel welcomes the refugees back home to the lands they lost in 1948. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/189 "2004-05-04T20:21:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, I do. “Deserving” is a moral judgement, and “logical consequences” are a product of analysis and thought. Pragmatism as a defense against ignorance and bigotry? I think not. > [@](#): > > What did you say, then? You seemed to be asking why I wasn’t as vehement about other countries’ imperialism in this thread. What were you asking? I did ask why other forms of imperialism didn’t piss you off, but not for the reasons you infer; to “wash the blood from my hands”. Instead I wanted you to do some free-form thinking about the subject and find out why. It must be nice to be insulated from the real world by a layer of “analysis and thought”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/190 "2004-05-04T20:21:51Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Logical consequences, man. You unnecessarily isolate yourself from potential allies. You would rather abandon an argument, regardless of how correct you judge it to be, simply because of one statement made by someone else? You would rather say “Forget it” instead of saying “Olentzero has it quite right, although that statement about burning in Hell was kinda harsh” and then continue the argument? Seriously, it seems to me that if you have no problem with supporting the Palestinian cause while at the same time rejecting the tactics of terrorism, there should be no problem in arguing in solidarity alongside another person of the same opinion while at the same time offering criticism of statements you perceive to be too far over the line. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/191 "2004-05-04T20:22:36Z")
As the term Palestinian wasn’t coined until the 1960’s, there is no way there could have been “Palestinian” acts of terror against Jews until then. But there is no denying the Arab-Muslim world has long been at best treated Jews as second class citizens and at worst openly massacred them. Thousands of Jews live in Israel today because they were kicked out of Arab countries. I’m still waiting to hear from the Arab world where they hell they were supposed to go after the friends of the Palestinians kicked them out. I can only imagine the reaction if those dispossessed Jews were to start a suicide bombing campaign in say downtown Cairo or Tehran. . . ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/192 "2004-05-04T20:24:17Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > I did ask why other forms of imperialism didn’t piss you off, but not for the reasons you infer; to “wash the blood from my hands”. Instead I wanted you to do some free-form thinking about the subject and find out why. They do piss me off, but as noted, imperialism in general isn’t the subject of the debate. The question was more of a distraction than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/193 "2004-05-04T20:26:39Z")
> [@lavenderlemon](#): > > As the term Palestinian wasn’t coined until the 1960’s Care to try [again](http://user.dtcc.edu/~berlin/palestin/palestin.htm)? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/194 "2004-05-04T20:30:58Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > You would rather abandon an argument, regardless of how correct you judge it to be, simply because of one statement made by someone else? You would rather say “Forget it” instead of saying “Olentzero has it quite right, although that statement about burning in Hell was kinda harsh” and then continue the argument? I won’t argue it here, that’s for sure. And with that, I’ll bow out of the thread. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/195 "2004-05-04T20:35:54Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Care to try [again](http://user.dtcc.edu/~berlin/palestin/palestin.htm)? You’re still wrong. The word was obviously around for centuries but wasn’t used by his Arafat and the population living the West Bank to describe themselves until the 1960’s. Therefore when you write about Palestinian anti-Semitism being absent until the establishment of Israel you are being historically inaccurate at best. And you are still not answering my question about where the Jewish refugees from the Arab world were supposed to settle. I had a professor who lived there because her family had been kicked out of Yemen. Where was she supposed to go? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/196 "2004-05-04T20:43:04Z")
Good gods **olentzero** , you’re an adult? Alright, gloves come off. You’re far too old to be acting like a hormonal teenager without an ounce of sense in their head. > [@Olentzero](#): > > No, I’m talking about the intifadeh. Idiot. You say that the Intifada and its current means are a direct and LOGICAL (not barbaric, not abhorent, not irrational) response. Then you back away by playing semantics. Coward. Fool. Idiot. > [@Olentzero](#): > > Israel has consistently oppressed the Palestinians since its founding, and that oppression will, sooner or later, provoke a fightback. 1. Even if we were to grant that Israel was the Oppressor and had done Bad Things, then the ‘fightback’ would still have to be targeted against their military. Just because you provoke an uprising doesn’t then mean the insurgents can murder babies for fun. 2. You’re far too old to be using a word like ‘fightback’ it’s not real, it sounds stupid, stop it. 3. (it’s also false to facts as the Arabs have been the aggressors and it’s the Israelis who are busy fighting back, which is, as others have pointed out, a fact that you have either disregarded out of stupidity or ignored out of racism.) > [@Olentzero](#): > > And it has before - surely you’re aware that this is the _second_ intifadeh. Well, that makes it ok then, carry on. > [@Olentzero](#): > > Now, if the Palestinians hadn’t been economically, politically, and socially squeezed to the point where all they have to fight back with are stones, slings, and homemade bombs, So, if they were fighting back against the people who are ruining their economy, government, and society… why are they attacking Israel and not Arafat? Big “duh” there. But don’t worry, because their leadership regularly fucks them up the ass it’s somehow the Jews’ fault. Oh, I’m sorry, not Jews’, just Jews who wanted a homeland. Also, you will notice if you are honest and not willfully ignorant that the PA sercuity forces are often in league with the terorists. And the PA has been [totally unarmed, right?](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/01/07/smuggling.htm) Fucking liar. > [@Olentzero](#): > > and instead had a well-equipped, well-trained army like the Israelis did, This is a bullshit position and cowardly. Totally inexcusable in someone your age. Tell me why the technological state of the IDF has jack shit to do with the Intifada’s commitment to targeting and murdering civilians? > [@Olentzero](#): > > Saying something is a logical consequence does indeed imply it’s a logical consequence. Recognition thereof does not imply approval or condonement. Fucking coward. You are too old not to know what the words you use mean! If it is a ‘logical’ consequence then it makes sense, it justifiable, logically flows. And, you pig, TARGETING civilians is NEVER a logical response, it is an insane, immoral, monstrous response, and when you fucking JUSTIFY it, you become revolting. > [@Olentzero](#): > > Because Israel, through 55 years of direct oppression of Palestinians, provoked that same intifadeh. Liar. Liar. Liar. You and your lies would have contributed to the ovens in Treblinka and Bergen Belsen you fucking waste. You know what caused the second Intifada? Not 55 years of anything, but a visit of an Israeli cabinet member to Al Aqsa, and the Palestinians went NUTS. You fucking obfuscatory bigot. [and your heros are murderous pigs](http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440) > [@Olentzero](#): > > You’ve correctly described it in that quote, but you haven’t done anything to identify the source Again. The source of an organized attempt to murder civilians? How about… evil? Fanaticism? Inhumanity? It is NOT a logical consequence, asshole. > [@Olentzero](#): > > .Is someone who gets bit by a dog because they were throwing rocks at it a victim? Who attacked who in ’48? This is one of those pesky ‘facts’ you keep ignoring. > [@Olentzero](#): > > .If it resulted in the forcible displacement of the population that was already living there, what else could you consider it? So you’re saying whenever a population is displaced it’s an act of war? So… America is at war with its own citizens whenever it invokes Eminent Domain? Orrrrr… you’re just full of shit? > [@Olentzero](#): > > Would you please point out where I claimed that? You know, I wonder if you can read. I’ve ALREADY referenced the posts to you on this issue. But I’m going to quote them so you’ll maybe open your eyes. First, in post 83 you say > [@Olentzero](#): > > Throw stones at the smaller dog in this fight for biting the ankle of the larger dog, and ignore the fact that not only is the larger dog tearing the smaller dog’s throat out, but the guy who’s trained and pumped the larger dog up on steroids is also charging us admission to watch this bloodbath. Then in post 88 I respond with > [@FinnAgain](#): > > And, it is clear that you are… confused as to Israel’s history. > > I have family who fought in ’48. I have family who were living in Palestine before the first wave of Aliah arrived. I have family who worked with the mafia in America to ship contraband to Irgun and Hagana. I have family who packaged disassembled weaponry in crates marked “tractor parts”. I have family who smuggled bullet molds in their skirts. > > And I can assure you, at no point was the United States pumping them up on anything. Although I’m certainly open to the possibility that there was CIA (or was it OSA back then?) intervention… Unless you can give me a cite that shows we’ve been arming them as some proxy since before '47… ~shrugs~ And then in post 91 you respond with > [@olentzero](#): > > > [@finnagain](#): > > > > And, it is clear that you are… confused as to Israel’s history. > > I submit to you Posts Nos. 106, 117, 120, and 124 of this thread, in which I provide an analysis of the history of Israel, along with several cites and sources. I saw no responses from the pro-Israel participants in the debate along the lines of “You have grossly misinterpreted the facts” or even “Your sources are unquestionably false”, so perhaps I’m not as confused as you would like to think I am? There ya go. I can see how it might’ve started as a misunderstanding, and you simply meant that after its founding the US has given it money and arms. (hard to tell through your rhetoric)… But, even if it was a miscommunication, you answered me as if I was correct in my understanding of what you said > [@olentzero](#): > > Who made up 66% of the population, and owned 94% of the land in Palestine, in 1947? Elephants? Yes, elephants, jackass. Not the Egyptians and Transjordans who could not have been consulted on what they wanted to do with their state since neither they (as a ‘people’) nor their state existed!!! > [@olentzero](#): > > They used it when it was to their advantage, and they defied it when it was to their advantage. You’re very sloppy, and can’t have it both ways. The mandate was good: Thus, the initial settlement was fine but later expansion might’ve been problematic as it wasn’t covered under the mandate. (forgetting that they were ATTACKED and didn’t ‘expand aggressively’ as propagandists like you would claim) The mandate was bad: Thus the initial settlement was bad and chastising the Israelis for not holding to the mandate is asinine. So which is it? > [@olentzero](#): > > Sure, if you only want to look back as far as 1993. But Israeli oppression of Palestinians stretches back further than that. Mmm hmmm. How about Arab oppression of the Jews? (neglecting the fact that Israel was attacked and defending itself from those who are ‘oppressed’ by its defense) > [@olentzero](#): > > Wye and Oslo weren’t ‘bad negotiating offers’, they were part of a conscious plan to keep a Palestinian state from being formed I assume that you have a signed order from the Knesset telling their ambassadors to fuck with the plan on purpose? Otherwise I have to call bullshit on you and question your ability to differentiate fantasy from fact. > [@olentzero](#): > > .Well, if you’re going to found a country by taking someone else’s land, yeah, I guess you’d want to smuggle weapons and immigrants in. Lies and racism, who’d a thunk it, from you??? Let’s see… you wouldn’t want to be armed because, as I’ve already proven, the Arab League was on record as saying genocide was its policy… nawwwwwwwwwwww! They were armed because that tiny fledgling nation wanted to pick a fight with the ENTIRE ARAB WORLD. Right on with that politcal commentary. And, how about the fact that lil’ piece of land was already taken unfairly by the people who were ruling it then? Or are you just calling ‘no backsies!’ > [@olentzero](#): > > If you’re going to piss the local population off, you might as well go whole hog. You’re right, and not a racism tool at alllll. It WAS the Jews’ fault, they pissed them off. In fact, the founding of Israel in 1948 sent people back in time to cause the Arabs to hate the Jews in the 1800’s. > [@olentzero](#): > > Please demonstrate where and how I am doing so.Nowhere have I said that the slaughter of Israeli civilians is normal and natural. Liar. You said it is a logical consequence. Logical consequences are not abnormal and not unnatural. Liar. > [@olentzero](#): > > ``` > I detest it. To understand why something is happening, and what preceding events serve as direct causes, is not to accept it as natural or condone it as normal. > > ``` Okay, you tell me what would, EVER, be a valid justification for PURPOSEFULLY MURDERING AS MANY CIVILIANS AS POSSIBLE. I’m waiting. What’s the ‘direct cause’ of that one? > [@olentzero](#): > > ``` > Chronologies, please! Cities! Dates! Numbers dead! Fucking bloodspatter patterns, if you got 'em. Back this claim up!I > > ``` You can read, can’t you? That is, you did read post 118 in this very thread? Oh… did you miss some pesky ‘facts’ that contradict your bullshit? Who would have THUNK it??? > [@olentzero](#): > > ``` > seem to remember Jews doing the same thing in order to help get Israel founded. > > ``` You seem to remember the JEWS working with the NAZIS to create Israel??? > [@olentzero](#): > > ``` > Additionally, wasn't it Ben Gurion who said The founding of Israel is more important than saving the lives of fellow Jews from the Holocaust. How callous can you get? > > ``` So… even if Ben Gurion was the most heartless bastard in the world, this somehow makes murdering Israeli babies a ‘logical consequence’? Oh, no, wait, that was just more obfuscatory bullshit. And by the way. The founding of Israel IS more important than the Jews who were saved from the Shoah (not to trivialize that…) Why? Because Israel guarantees that NEVER AGAIN will a boat of Jewish refugees be floated across the entire world without one single nation allowing them to escape an organized attempt at genocide. > [@olentzero](#): > > ``` > Yes, and the Native Americans are owed bigtime for these last four centuries. What's the best way to make reparations? I don't know; it would probably be best to ask the First Nations. Do I advocate sending "us" (whoever "we" are) back? No. Doesn't mean the Indians should keep being stuck on those piss-poor excuses for homelands called 'reservations'. Right of return isn't possible for the Native Americans, and I don't think that's one of their demands. > > ``` Hey, wait! It’s a fact, and it contradicts your argument! Ignore it! Perhaps you don’t even realize you contradict yourself? If the Palestinians are logically entitled to murder civilians, what should the Native Americans be able to get away with? I take it you’d have no problem if Cherokee youth started strapping explosives to their bodies and blowing up nightclubs? And why isn’t right of return possible for the Native Americans? Land taken, get land back? Right? They’d be ‘logically’ entitled to launch an attack against the Manhattan subways, right? > [@olentzero](#): > > ``` > It is, however, possible in Palestine, and it is one of their demands. So it should be seriously considered. > > ``` Okay, let’s consider letting hundreds of thousands of people immigrate to a sovereign nation which does not want them there. These hundreds of thousands have historically been dedicated to the Ethnic Cleansing of said sovereign nation. Analysis? Wonderful idea, whee! > [@olentzero](#): > > ``` > **Weirddave** , please provide cites of the historical events you claim I'm twisting, and the untwisted version thereof. And you still haven't explained why those are arguments against my political beliefs, and not me, thereby supporting your claim that you're not attacking me in this thread. > > ``` Read this post, I’ve already pointed out numerous examples of you ignoring or twisting facts. (eg. Israel is the aggressor in the region) > [@olentzero](#): > > ``` > Which is what, making them angry? I'm hardly surprised this debate has aroused such heated passions, but that wasn't my intent on involving myself in here. I came in to voice my opinion and defend it. > > ``` You really are like a silly child when it comes to this, aren’t you? Your words have the same quality as the Nazis pronouncements: gigantic lies which place undue guilt with the Jewish people (or the Jewish state, whatever) and then excuse any and all atrocities committed against Jews as ‘only logical reactions’. > [@olentzero](#): > > ``` > It's not the Jews' fault, it's the Zionists'. Big difference. > > ``` Non-operational-difference. Hertzel is dead. The Zionists are old men and women if they’re alive at all. Israel today is a nation of Jews. Zionism was the drive to establish a Jewish Homeland, it’s already been done. Now all you have are Jewish children living where their Zionist forefathers settled. So stop calling them ‘Zionists’ as if that makes your racism ok. > [@olentzero](#): > > Because this is a thread about Israel, not about imperialism in general. Pointing the finger at others and saying “They did this too” doesn’t wash the blood off your own hands. No, but being willfully ignorant won’t wash the ‘blood’ off of your propaganda. How can you claim that the Palestinians, who didn’t exist as a people or a state, and were only living on land that they’d stolen anyways, have more of a right to the land than anybody else? Or, again, are you just invoking the “no backsies!” rule? > [@olentzero](#): > > There’s a difference between defense and aggressive expansion. Look at the French map I’ve linked to several times. Defense doesn’t involve taking additional territory. Liar, you fucking liar! Defense does INDEED involve taking territory if you are ATTACKED FROM THAT TERRITORY!!! If Israel, instead of its Arab neighbors, had started the wars then maybe you’d be right instead of an idiot. > [@olentzero](#): > > Nowhere, ever, have I said the Israelis deserve this. There is a vast difference between understanding the causes of an event and saying the outcome of such events are to be expected given the situation, and saying that the outcome of such events is deserved. Again you lie through your teeth. Israelis don’t deserve it? Then the Intifada’s tactics are NOT logical consequences but crimes against humanity, n’est-ce pas? And, I can understand the cause of a revolt, I can’t understand the cause of DELIBERATELY TARGETING CIVILIANS. You are attempting to conflate the two, and you make me ill. > [@olentzero](#): > > I do not believe Israeli citizens deserve to die. > > There you have it, in black and grey. Please refer to this statement before directing further questions to me on my feelings about the intifadeh. I would believe you if you hadn’t already shown that you are a liar. (and if you weren’t busy contradicting yourself) You don’t think Israelis deserve to die? Really honestly and truly? Then you will put, in that same pretty bold font “Palestinians who deliberately target civilians are lower than dogs and deserve only my contempt.” not that it’s a “logical consequence” of “Zionist oppression”. Whatever, I refuse to waste any more time on you. It’s like trying to pin jell-o to the wall. You don’t know what you’re saying. You don’t know facts. You don’t know the implications of your own murderous rhetoric. Sorry to be all ‘having the last word’. Feel free to respond to me all you like, I’m just done with you in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/197 "2004-05-04T20:45:33Z")
:rolleyes: Fine. Whatever. I just want to see proof that the indigenous Muslim population of the territory known as Palestine, today comprising the territory of the state of Israel, engaged in massacres of the Jewish population of that same territory over the span of centuries, as **Shayna** attests. 176 Jews killed in two incidents over eight years in the 1920s, by whatever name the indigenous Muslim population called themselves at the time, does not sufficiently back up that claim. Is that a sufficiently rigorous request? As for your question, **Binarydrone** asked the same thing - earlier, if I recall correctly - and my answer is in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/198 "2004-05-04T20:46:25Z")
going along with a minor hijack for now… > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > It is for this reason that I until recently opposed the immediate withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, for example: it seemed to me that a logical consequence of such an action would be the descent of Iraq into even worse violence than is currently there. (The last week’s events are making me reevaluate my position). See… If all **olentzero** had said was that insurrection in-and-of-itself was a response to real or perceived injustice, I would have agreed. I also would have argued, as others have in this thread, that the Palestinian _perception_ that they are the victims of a vast Zionist/American Plot is just that, a perception and not reality. The problem for me arises when you talk about the Intifada’s **tactis** as logical consequences. Rebellion may be normal. Trying to kill as many civilians as possible is not logic or justified in any conflict, ever. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/199 "2004-05-04T20:48:29Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > The question was more of a distraction than anything else. Coming from somebody who’s cherrypicking which points to debate and ignoring the rest, I won’t take it personally. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/200 "2004-05-04T20:50:25Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Sorry to be all ‘having the last word’. Feel free to respond to me all you like, I’m just done with you in this thread. OKbyenow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186.md?page=11)