# Palestinian scum **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 2, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186 "2004-05-02T21:15:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/201 "2004-05-04T20:57:24Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > […] shut the fuck up and stay the fuck out. You’re being worse than useless. What? Why are you dragging _me_ into this? Oh… Posted by shayna: > [@](#): > > we are hated because we are Jews > > […] > > But you cannot know. History has shown repeatedly that no matter how we act, how we live, where we live, we are considered subhuman, worthy of mass genocide, and not just during the Holocaust. Throughout history. Centuries. If it makes you feel better to think that everyone who opposes the actions of Israel in Palestine hates Jews, thinks they are subhuman, worthy off mass genocide (is there another form of genocide, btw?) et al, knock yourself right the fuck out. That is, however, offensive to those of us who actually know how we feel about Judaism. You do your people a disservice by spouting that crap but luckily I know enough Jews and Israelis to know that not all of you use the “everyone hates us” speech whenever someone disapproves of Israel’s actions. I hope everyone else who sees what you write feels the same way because it is not easy to sympathise with someone who keeps calling you (and all Europeans, and the UN etc.) a racist. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/202 "2004-05-04T21:12:08Z")
> [@UselessGit](#): > > What? > If it makes you feel better to think that everyone who opposes the actions of Israel in Palestine hates Jews, thinks they are subhuman, worthy off mass genocide (is there another form of genocide, btw?) et al, knock yourself right the fuck out. That is, however, offensive to those of us who actually know how we feel about Judaism. To be fair, I don’t think she was saying that all people who oppose Israel are racists, just that **olentzero** has a position that’s either powerfully ignorant or purposefully racist. And… there ARE a large number of Europeans, Arabs, UN nations, etc, which hate the Jews. So, not all anti-Zionists are anti-Semites. But a whole bunch of them are. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/203 "2004-05-04T21:13:23Z")
Thanks for the first laugh I’ve gotten out of this thread, **UselessGit**. Even if it was only a nervous chuckle because it took me a moment to realize this wasn’t the start of another flamewar. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/204 "2004-05-04T21:20:50Z")
As much as vehemently disagree with just about every word that **Olentzero** has said in this thread, I gotta correct **FinnAgain** on something: **Olentzero** is no racist. He 's a decent human being with some doctrinaire political views that don’t allow much room for compromise. In some way, his perseverance in the face of harsh criticism is to be admired. He is no Jew hater, not a bigot, nor a racist. He wants fair treatment for the dispossessed, but IMO he has a hard time seeing what’s fair for every side. That doesn’t make him bad, just stubborn (and I know from stubborn). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/205 "2004-05-04T21:24:35Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > As much as vehemently disagree with just about every word that **Olentzero** has said in this thread, I gotta correct **FinnAgain** on something: > > **Olentzero** is no racist. He 's a decent human being with some doctrinaire political views that don’t allow much room for compromise. In some way, his perseverance in the face of harsh criticism is to be admired. > > He is no Jew hater, not a bigot, nor a racist. He wants fair treatment for the dispossessed, but IMO he has a hard time seeing what’s fair for every side. > > That doesn’t make him bad, just stubborn (and I know from stubborn). **gobear** , just to clear it up, I don’t think that **olentzero** is a racist. I DO think his actions either have stupidity or racism behind them. I can admire his adherence to his ideal, while thinking his ideal is just plain ol’ stupid. For instance, calling a country that was attacked by all of its neighbors the ‘aggressor…’ so, yeah, I don’t think he’s a racist, just that his propaganda has historicaly been used for racist purposes. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/206 "2004-05-04T21:27:07Z")
I feel a bit sick to my stomach having to read these post today. Today is commemoration day in the Netherlands. We remember [amongst others] the three million Jews, Roma, homo-sexuals etc., who were slaughtered in WWII. I’ve just had my two minutes silence and now I have to read the naïve nonsense **Olentzero** is posting. [Here’s another link](http://www.townhall.com/columnists/joelmowbray/jm20030828.shtml):\*\* Last year, the leader of Hizbollah, Hassan Nassrallah, mused, “If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.” And Hizbollah’s protector, the Syrian government, is no less open about its desire to kill all Jews. Syria’s Minister of Defense, Mustapha Tlass, opined in a television interview two years ago that if “every Arab killed a Jew, no Jews would remain,” and added that he personally wanted “to kill any Jew he faced.”\*\* But never mind. You’re probably too dense to read the significance of this. And once again, as the OP stated: \*\* Palestinian scum murder innocents deliberately. \*\* \* Pregnant women and children.\* As opposed to casualties, made by an army, tracking terrorists. Man, Have you no shame? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/207 "2004-05-04T21:35:57Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > To be fair, I don’t think she was saying that all people who oppose Israel are racists, just that **olentzero** has a position that’s either powerfully ignorant or purposefully racist. I thought you said you were done with me. Since you’ve actually said a couple things that have clarified your position in the last couple of posts, I’ll try to clarify my position as well. > [@](#): > > If all olentzero had said was that insurrection in-and-of-itself was a response to real or perceived injustice, I would have agreed. That _is_ what I’m saying. And I would argue that the injustice is real, not perceived. So, for argument’s sake I’m assuming we’re in agreement that the intifadeh, or any rebellion on the part of the Palestinians, **regardless of the tactics employed** , is a response - and a logical consequence of - the injustices perpetrated by Israel. The rebellion in and of itself is understandable, no matter what tactics they’re using. Yes? This naturally leads to the question of tactics. “What tactics are available to us?” is the question Palestinians have had to ask themselves over and over again. Terrorism is an option; it’s not the only option, but it is one nevertheless. And I can understand why the Palestinians would resort to it - dire impoverishment that is nowhere close to their fault alone, and continued provocations by the Israeli government that only serve to increase anger among the Palestinian population in general. “We have little else to fight with,” some Palestinians will say, “so we should organize around those tactics.” The Palestinians have no choice but to resist - that is the logical consequence of Israeli oppression. They do have a choice of tactics; therefore terrorism is _not_ a logical consequence of Israeli oppression. Let me reiterate - understanding why someone does something is _not_ the same thing as approving of it. I would much rather the Palestinians find other ways of fighting back that made the cost of continuing occupation too much for Israel to bear. But I’m in no position to influence the Palestinian resistance - at best I’m only able to voice my support for their cause while at the same time trying to make as clear as possible I don’t support the tactics they’re employing. **gum** , Israel is no stranger to deliberately killing Palestinian innocents. Neither side is better than the other in that regard, nor can they claim the moral high ground on that basis. It is possible to examine the merits and weaknesses of the reasons Israel and the Palestinians are fighting without condemning one or the other side completely for the tactics they employ since the two are not inextricably linked. It is possible for the Palestinians to militantly resist without resorting to terrorism, so their cause should not be dismissed simply because that is the tactic of choice for some of their number. And forget furnishing the proof I’m looking for. Let others handle it if it nauseates you that much. I’m not forcing you in particular to peform this task. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/208 "2004-05-04T21:45:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > For instance, calling a country that was attacked by all of its neighbors the ‘aggressor…’ To use a very loose analogy, if six friends group together to take down a neighborhood bully who’s been picking on one of their number, who is the aggressor? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/209 "2004-05-04T21:49:20Z")
Posted by **Olentzero** [QUOTE] I’m not forcing you in particular to peform this task. \*\* But you _are_. Thousands of Dutch looked the other way when they came to collect the Jews to be gassed. I’m not going to sit on my ass and let a whole new generation start a whole new holocaust. [I’m off to bed now. It’s late and it has been an emotional day. I’d be happy to reply to you tomorrow. Perhaps I can persuade another looker-on to see what’s right - but my hopes aren’t high.] ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/210 "2004-05-04T22:55:13Z")
> [@UselessGit](#): > > If it makes you feel better to think that everyone who opposes the actions of Israel in Palestine hates Jews, thinks they are subhuman, worthy off mass genocide (is there another form of genocide, btw?) et al, knock yourself right the fuck out. That is, however, offensive to those of us who actually know how we feel about Judaism. > > You do your people a disservice by spouting that crap but luckily I know enough Jews and Israelis to know that not all of you use the “everyone hates us” speech whenever someone disapproves of Israel’s actions. I hope everyone else who sees what you write feels the same way because it is not easy to sympathise with someone who keeps calling you (and all Europeans, and the UN etc.) a racist. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply misread my reply or that I wasn’t clear enough. Since it’s back a page or two, I’ll recap: **Zoe** said, “It is my opinion that both the Israelis and the Palestinians believe that they are acting in defense… I don’t think anyone will argue with you that anti-Semitism has long been a factor. But it isn’t the only factor [in that].” Note that she’s referring to the Israelis and the Palestinians, not every American, European or Asian person in the world. And that is the quote to which I was replying. They _do_ hate us because we are Jews. She then further said, “The Palestinians also see themselves as endangered and threatened. Right or wrong, they also view the situation through a similar filter.” To which I reiterated that their hatred for us _is_ because we are Jews. I also contended that Jews have been historically hated no matter what we’ve done or where we’ve lived. Because We Are Jews. That statement, too, is true. Neither of the above comments suggests even slightly that I believe that everyone who opposes the actions in Israel, does so because they hate Jews (there are many actions of today’s Israel that I oppose, also, and I’m hardly an anti-Semite!). I don’t, however, believe that to be true of **Olentzero** , his protestations notwithstanding. For any miscommunication on my part that caused offense, I apologize. [And Olentzero needs to read his own damn cites.](http://user.dtcc.edu/~berlin/palestin/history.htm) Jews didn’t “steal” anything from Palestinians. A “Palestinian” State didn’t even exist, per se. The territory was controlled by the British, the French and the Turks (at least during the time period in question). Jews lived there. Arabs lived there. All of them under another nation’s rule. Forgive the length of the following, but some people can’t be trusted to actually click on and read provided cites… > [@](#): > > On November 5, 1914, England in protecting her interests in the Suez Canal as well as benefitting from the System of Capitulations, declared war on Turkey, who had sided with the Central Powers. During 1915, the first plans were drawn up by Britain for the partition of the Turkish Empire. In an attempt to win Arab support in the war against Turkey, Britain began negotiations with the Grand Sherif of Mecca, Hussein, afterwards the King of Hedjaz. On October 25 of that year, the British High Commissioner in Egypt, Sir Henry MacMahon, informed Hussein that Britain was “prepared to recognize and support the independence of the Arabs.” But MacMahon also added that the areas of Palestine west of the Jordan River and parts of Lebanon would have to be entirely excluded from any future Arab State. > > \ > > On December 8, 1917 (the beginning of the Jewish holiday of Hanukah and few weeks after the Balfour Declaration), the Commander-in-Chief of the Egyptian-based expeditionary forces of Great Britain, General Edmund Henry Allenby triumphantly entered Jerusalem after defeating the Turkish forces. However, Palestine remained divided, with the British controlling the south while the Turks holding the north. This situation lasted until September 21, 1918 when a new offensive, centering in the valley of Jezreel in Samaria, threw back the Turkish armies, driving them out from Palestine and neighboring Syria. At the end of October, Turkey completely surrendered and the **British conquest of Palestine was completed**. > > The period following World War I found Palestine, as well as the Near and Middle East, in a complex political situation. The area taken from Turkey was under the military control of Allied armies, and conflicts in claims were already arising between the various powers. **Palestine proper, on both sides of the Jordan River, was under British military government, while Lebanon and Syria, to the north, were under French control**. Disagreement between England and France over the exact boundary between Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria was not slow in arising, with both Arabs and Bedouins freely participating in the boundary dispute. > > \ > > The Palestine Mandate, which included the area of Cis-Jordan (later Transjordan), was granted to **Great Britain, which already had been in military occupation since 1917**. By the Treaty of Sèvres between the Allies and Turkey signed on August 10, 1920, Turkey now renounced her sovereignty over Palestine, thereby recognizing the mandatory settlement. However, this treaty was never ratified, being only until the ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in 1924, did Turkey implicitly accept the Mandate. > > \ > > **Legally** , the Palestine Mandate was of the “Class A” Mandates in which the mandatory was regarded as the guardian of a people not yet able to stand by itself and which was to be trained for self-government. A Mandate was a system of trusteeship established by Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations for the administration of former Turkish territories and German colonies. It marked an important innovation of international law with respect to dependent territories, differing from a protectorate in that obligations were assumed by the Mandate power to the inhabitants and to the League. > > \ > > Until Transjordan acquired independence in May, 1946, the High Commissioner for Palestine was always the High Commissioner for Transjordan as well. The High Commissioner was assisted by an advisory council of government officials and an executive council. Consequently, **he was the supreme head of Palestine, and had complete legislative and executive power subject only to control from London… The official British military occupation of Palestine ended with the appointment of Sir Herbert Samuel, himself an orthodox Jew, as the first High Commissioner on July 1, 1920**. > > \ > > Despite the Balfour Declaration, England never sought to disguise or hide its primary intent in Palestine as an area of strategic importance to the British Empire. Palestine proved a valuable base of military operations in the protection of the Suez, making the Jewish National Homeland in Palestine **legally** more secure… The rivalry between Britain and France for control of the Middle East (e.g., in Lebanon and Syria), rising Arab nationalism as well as the rising ambitions of Arab leaders, all served to **arouse Arab unrest and incite violence**. > > **Following Arab riots in 1920 and 1921 on Jewish agricultural colonies in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Jaffa** , which were sparked by the urgings of the Mufti Haj Amim al-Husseini, the (Winston) Churchill White Paper was issued by the British in July, 1922, setting forth official policy in a manner designed to limit the interpretations which had been previously cited in the Balfour Declaration. This, the first of the “White Papers” on the Mandate, diminished the area of Jewish Palestine by removing Transjordan, the country lying on both sides of the Jordan River and the Dead Sea from Palestine and making it a separate Arab territory. In Biblical terms, this included the lands of Ammon, Gilead, Moab, and Midian. To this territory, the “Jewish National Home” clause did not apply, such that a separate system of representative government under an Arab emir was established. > > As Hitler and the Nazis rose to power in Germany, persecutions sent a stream of German Jews to Palestine. **The Arabs reacted with new riots** , foreseeing the day when the Jewish population would exceed their own. British action to eliminate **the terror** was neither forceful enough nor consistent to accomplish this aim, causing them to pursue another form of action. In November 1936, a new British Royal Commission headed by Lord William Robert Peel came to Palestine **to investigate the causes of Arab terror**. The Peel Commission stayed two months and issued its report in July, 1937 that the **Arabs had gained materially and substantially from the presence of Jews** in the country, and further declared that: > > “Unquestionably…the primary purpose of the Mandate, as expressed in its preamble and its articles, is to promote the establishment of the Jewish National Home.” > > However, because of **lack of cooperation of the Arabs** , the Peel Commission concluded that the Mandate was unworkable and recommended a partition plan that divided Palestine into separate Arab and Jewish states, as well as a neutral corridor and all Holy Places under British rule. > > \ > > The UNSCOP report, published August 31, 1947, recommended unanimously the termination of the British Mandate, the preservation of economic unity of Palestine, and the safeguarding of the Holy Places. However, UNSCOP was divided on the political future of Palestine. The majority favored separate Jewish and Arab states in Palestine with Jerusalem as an “international city.” The minority of three members (India, Iran, and Yugoslavia) recommended a federal Arab-Jewish state, while Australia abstained from voting. The Jews accepted the partition plan, for with all its territorial limitations and inequities, it nevertheless assured a Jewish state in Palestine with the backing of the world. The Arabs however acted to the contrary, rejecting the partition by **unleashing a storm of violence through the country**. For two months the UNSCOP report was debated by the UN General Assembly. On November 29, 1947, the final vote was taken, and the partition resolution based on the UNSCOP majority report was approved. Voting for partition was as follows: > > For partition (33): Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussia, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Equador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, the Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukraine, Union of South Africa, U.S.S.R., United States, Uruguay, and Venezuela. > > Against partition (13): Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, and Yemen. > > Abstention (10): Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, and Yugoslavia. > > Absent (1): Siam. > > Five months later on May 14, 1948, after most of the British Army had departed from Palestine, the British union jack was lowered and the seventh and last British High Commissioner, Lt. Gen. Sir Allen Gordon Cunningham, boarded a British naval vessel at Haifa. With his departure, the British Mandate of Palestine came to an end and the State of Israel - Medinat Yisrael, was formed. Under other circumstances I might ask someone to explain to me exactly how the British TURNING OVER THEIR CONTROL OF ONE TINY PART OF “PALESTINE,” WITH THE APPROVAL OF 33 VOTING STATES, TO THE JEWS, constitutes them “stealing” jack shit from anybody. As it is, I’m just too tired and drained to even care to hear how people like **Olentzero** want to distort the truth, so please do me a favor and don’t bother. Here’s the bottom line with regard to the area once known as “Palestine”… Jews lived there. Arabs lived there. The British controlled the territory and gave it to the Jews. We have been fighting for our continued RIGHT to govern that territory ever since. You don’t have to like the _way_ we’re fighting (I don’t always like it either), but I would appreciate if people would quit telling us that we don’t have the moral right to fight for what’s ours in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/211 "2004-05-04T23:32:59Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > The vow of “Never again!” only begins with the Jewish people and surely must extend to genocide wherever it is found. How horrible that it does happen again and again – the former Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Rowanda, the Sudan. The Palestinians also see themselves as endangered and threatened. Right or wrong, they also view the situation through a similar filter. This means nothing when 59% of Palestinians say attacks against Israel should continue if Israel were to leave all territories, including East Jerusalem, and grant statehood to them. It does happen again and again, and this region is no different. Also, 79% polled don’t believe bombings of Israeli buses and restaurants are acts of terrorism. [The poll.](http://www.pmw.org.il/new/Palestinian%20society.htm#poll) That’s a very interesting site, you should look at the rest of it. I wanted to post this last night/this morning, but the board was lagging. **Olentzero** , ignoring facts to further your ideology? You’re garbage. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/212 "2004-05-05T00:17:36Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Fuck you. Just… fuck you. I like Robyn a whole hell of a lot, and right now I can’t even stomach the thought of seeing her at a Dopefest because it means you’ll be around. You wanna fight ignorace, fine. You wanna actually debate an issue, well and good. But if all you can contribute to a thread, even a Pit thread, is something like the above quoted post, shut the fuck up and stay the fuck out. You’re being worse than useless. Whoa, dude. Calm down. I’m married to a completely different Dave. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/213 "2004-05-05T02:39:13Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Under other circumstances I might ask someone to explain to me exactly how the British TURNING OVER THEIR CONTROL OF ONE TINY PART OF “PALESTINE,” WITH THE APPROVAL OF 33 VOTING STATES, TO THE JEWS, constitutes them “stealing” jack shit from anybody. Jewish land ownership as of 1947 was ONLY 6% OF THE TOTAL LAND OWNERSHIP IN PALESTINE. Yet, as a result of the Partition Plan of 1947, THEY GOT HALF THE TERRITORY. In other words, 88% OF THE LAND THEY WERE CEDED WAS OWNED BY PALESTINIANS. Ergo, LAND GRAB. ISRAEL STOLE LAND FROM THE PALESTINIANS. At least that’s my understanding from reading the maps, ISSUED BY THE UN ITSELF, that detail population breakdown, land ownership breakdown, and the borders of the partition. Now, what facts am I ignoring? > [@](#): > > Jews lived there. Arabs lived there. The British controlled the territory and gave it to the Jews. We have been fighting for our continued RIGHT to govern that territory ever since. What right? The sole right of Israel to govern the whole territory? That’s what they seem to be asserting. > [@](#): > > You don’t have to like the _way_ we’re fighting (I don’t always like it either), but I would appreciate if people would quit telling us that we don’t have the moral right to fight for what’s ours in the first place. Jews have a right to live wherever they damn well please. They don’t have the right to displace another entire population to do it. And that is exactly what they did, seeing as how the Muslim population was twice as large as the Jewish population in Palestine in 1947. You have the right to coexist peacefully alongside the Palestinian Muslims. You do not have the right to kick them out of their own homes and take half or more of their land. **Necro Romancer** , are you just going to repeat the accusation of others or are you going to provide cites? What facts am I ignoring? The poll is an interesting document, to be sure. Although it doesn’t clearly define what it means by “territories”. In question 11, they ask the respondents what they think “occupied territories” mean. 48% believe it means only the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. It is hard to make sense of question 14 without this definition. If we assume the definition of “occupied territories” to be the whole of Israel, how can Israel negate the right of return if they’ve abandoned the country? The only way they could negate that right is if they withdrew _only_ from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip into the 1967 borders. Clearly, then, that is not enough for the Palestinians - they believe the right of return extends over all of Israel, not just the Occupied Territories, which would explain their support (albeit weaker) for the continued struggle of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Question 13 is an interesting one. We see that 57% of Israelis don’t believe the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza strip should end, even if the Palestinians gave up fighting _and_ their demand for right of return. In other words, they believe Israel should continue the occupation even when their demands for peace have been met. (Unless I greatly misunderstand the Israeli demands for peace.) If Israel were truly interested in any sort of peace, shouldn’t they be in favor of ending the occupation if their demands are met? How about Question 12? 47% of Palestinians don’t believe Allah wants Muslims to fight Jews. Yet 59% support continued struggle in the event of Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders, and 80% support continued struggle for the right of return. I don’t know anything about statistics, but it would seem to me that means a significant minority of Palestinians don’t see this as a holy war against Jews. They just want their land back. Is it entirely possible that these voices would be drowned out by the howl for Israeli blood if the right of return were granted unconditionally? **MsRobyn** - ego surfing, were we? 😉 I get the two of you easily confused - two red-headed Dopers who traveled across half a continent to marry other Dopers. I swear I’d typed “Ginger” in that rant and only realized my mistake later that morning when **gobear** pointed it out. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/214 "2004-05-05T03:02:32Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Now, what facts am I ignoring?What right? The sole right of Israel to govern the whole territory? That’s what they seem to be asserting.Jews have a right to live wherever they damn well please. They don’t have the right to displace another entire population to do it. And that is exactly what they did, seeing as how the Muslim population was twice as large as the Jewish population in Palestine in 1947. You have the right to coexist peacefully alongside the Palestinian Muslims. You do not have the right to kick them out of their own homes and take half or more of their land. I see you’re STILL LYING! I used YOUR cite. YOU posted it. Go look at the maps on YOUR OWN CITE, you asshole, and then read what it says… > [@](#): > > Largely as a result of Britain’s victories over the Ottoman Turks, more than ten million **Arabs were liberated from Turkish rule**. The total area of **Arab lands in (now Saudi) Arabia was 1,184,000 square miles**. Palestine, **the only portion of former Ottoman territory** that was **set aside for a Jewish national home, covered less than 11,000 square miles**! That’s HARDLY what I would call a “land grab.” HARDLY what I would call “displacing an entire population.” HARDLY what I would call governing the “whole territory.” Not even CLOSE. Not by a LANDSLIDE! It didn’t even belong to the “Palestian Arabs” in the first place – it was TURKISH. They were LIBERATED by this action. **QUIT LYING** ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/215 "2004-05-05T03:17:31Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Jewish land ownership as of 1947 was ONLY 6% OF THE TOTAL LAND OWNERSHIP IN PALESTINE. Yet, as a result of the Partition Plan of 1947, THEY GOT HALF THE TERRITORY. In other words, 88% OF THE LAND THEY WERE CEDED WAS OWNED BY PALESTINIANS. > > Ergo, LAND GRAB. ISRAEL STOLE LAND FROM THE PALESTINIANS. > > At least that’s my understanding from reading the maps, ISSUED BY THE UN ITSELF, that detail population breakdown, land ownership breakdown, and the borders of the partition. > > Now, what facts am I ignoring? You are ignoring that fact that the land was owned by Britain, their ownership was confirmed by both the League of Nations and the UN, and it was theirs to do with as they damn well pleased, reguardless of the ownership of individual plots of land, and they pleased to cede it to a new state known as Isreal, a process done completely under UN auspices. It’s the same as when the Louisanna Purchase was made by the U.S.-people who owned lands covered by the purchase still owned their land, but the terretory now belonged to the US and not France. Arabs still owned their land in Israel( although many, if not most, soon abandoned it with the idea that the Jews could be driven out and then they’d reclaim their land. Since they voluntarily abandoned their land, I have no sympathy for them ), it was simply now part of a nation called Isreal, not part of the British Empire anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/216 "2004-05-05T03:39:46Z")
In the territory of Palestine in 1947, the Jewish population owned only 6% of the land. The UN partition of Palestine gave the Zionists 55% of that same territory. It was a land grab. Now, for another tidbit I’d promised - Zionist collaboration with the Nazis in Germany. Lenni Brenner, in his book _Zionism in the Age of the Dictators_, notes in [Chapter 5](http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ch05.htm) that the Zionist Federation of Germany sent a memorandum to Hitler himself; chief among the gems in this little love note is > [@](#): > > For its practical aims, **Zionism hopes to be able to win the collaboration even of a government fundamentally hostile to Jews** , because in dealing with the Jewish question no sentimentalities are involved but a real problem whose solution interests all peoples, and at the present moment especially the German people. “Collaboration… of a government fundamentally hostile to Jews”. :eek: Or how about Faviel Polkes? He met with none other than Adolf Eichmann, the man who oversaw the Final Solution in Germany, in Haifa in 1937. There, he expressed his support for the “radical German policy” towards the Jews, and in return was allowed to set up recruiting offices for Haganah in Germany itself. As Christopher Simpson asserts in “Blowback” (p. 253), Polkes depended solely on “secret funds from the SS” for a large part of that period. Let’s take a look at what Yitzhak Gruenwald, chairman of the Jewish Agency’s Rescue Committee, had to say at a JA meeting in 1943: > [@](#): > > They will say that I am anti-Semitic, that I don’t want to save the Exile, that I don’t have a warm Jewish heart. Let them say what they want. I will not demand that the Jewish Agency allocate a sum of 300,000 or 100,000 pounds sterling to help European Jewry. And I think whoever demands such things is performing an anti-Zionist act. Tom Segev, _The Seventh Million_, p 102. Appeals to Hitler for collaboration. Financial support from Eichmann. Actual refusal to do something about the Holocaust from people in able to actually do so. What heroism! What bravery! What fortitude! **Weirddave** - “left voluntarily”? Jacques de Reynier, an observer of the International Red Cross, went to the village of Deir Yassin shortly after soldiers of the Irgun had visited the town on 9 April 1948. Here are some of his observations: > [@](#): > > The first room was dark, everything was in disorder, but there was no-one. In the second, amid disembowelled furniture and all sorts of debris, I found some bodies cold. Here the ‘cleaning up’ had been done with machine guns, then hand grenades. It had been finished off with knives, anyone could see that. The same thing in the next room but as I was about to leave, I heard something like a sigh. I looked everywhere, turned over all the bodies, and eventually found a little foot, still warm. It was a little girl of ten, mutilated by a hand grenade, but still alive; everywhere it was the same horrible sight… there had been 400 people in this village; about fifty had escaped. All the rest had been deliberately massacred in cold blood for, as I observed for myself, this gang [Irgun] was admirably disciplined and acted only under orders. Now remember, this is in April 1948 - _before_ the state of Israel declared its foundation. What effect did this have on the Palestinian population in general? > [@](#): > > Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery’, were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened uncontrollable stampede… the political and economic significance can hardly be overestimated. The author? Menachem Begin. Maybe you’ve heard of him. Both the de Reynier and Begin quotes are from David Hurst’s _The Gun and the Olive Branch_, pp 128-129. Or maybe I’m ignoring facts again? As for the British owning Palestine - what right did they have to claim it in the first place? I would argue the Muslim population’s right to self-determination, even as far back as 1920, would far outweigh the British Crown’s right to dispense with the land as it pleased. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/217 "2004-05-05T03:40:49Z")
Olentzero, you ignorant, idealistic, liar, willfully blinded by your own bullshit. Do you see why I said you were willfully ignorant of history? The noose has been placed on your weasel neck and lynched tight by Shayna. I don’t care who occupied the land. Nor do any other “Zionists”. THe fact is a referendum was reached, the land signed over to Israel. ISRAEL DIDN’T PULL A LAND GRAB YOU IGNORAMUS. How stupid can you be? How ignorant? How blinded by propaganda and bigotry are you? Stupid. And while we’re at it, fuck Marx. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/218 "2004-05-05T03:59:06Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > THe fact is a referendum was reached, the land signed over to Israel. ISRAEL DIDN’T PULL A LAND GRAB YOU IGNORAMUS. A referendum decided by whom? The people that lived in the region? No. Why should the right of a crumbling empire or an organization outweigh the right of the indigenous population to determine its own destiny? > [@](#): > > How stupid can you be? How ignorant? How blinded by propaganda and bigotry are you? Nowhere near as much as you are. I’m providing the cites here, and yet I’m the one ignoring facts? > [@](#): > > And while we’re at it, fuck Marx. Yeah, your mother wears combat boots and she dresses you funny. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/219 "2004-05-05T04:15:03Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > A referendum decided by whom? The people that lived in the region? No. Why should the right of a crumbling empire or an organization outweigh the right of the indigenous population to determine its own destiny? I hate to point this out again, but you’re living in the past. Come back to the present and look towards the future my friend. Right, wrong or indifferent, the UN and Britain hased out a deal. It was put to a vote and Israel was born. THis isn’t Israel’s fault, the “Zionists” fault, and this doesn’t excuse any action on the ragtag group of Palestinian terrorists are taking. > [@](#): > > Nowhere near as much as you are. I’m providing the cites here, and yet I’m the one ignoring facts? You’re providing quotes from propaganda books. You’re taking out of context quotations from a book Begin wrote. You’re getting slapped around with the data that is contained within your cites(or did you miss Shayna’s post???) Yes, you’re ignoring facts and blaming the Israelis. Yes, you’re history is all fucked up as other posters have pointed out. > [@](#): > > Yeah, your mother wears combat boots and she dresses you funny. So that’s where my taste in combats came from…thanks Olent! Sam ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/220 "2004-05-05T04:20:23Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > I’m providing the cites here, and yet I’m the one ignoring facts? Oh good g-d that’s rich. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186.md?page=12)