# Palestinian scum **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 2, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186 "2004-05-02T21:15:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/281 "2004-05-06T14:47:14Z")
> [@Testy](#): > > Tabby\_Cat. > I’m about as apolitical as it is possible to be and have a pretty intense dislike of terrorists, particularly Islamic ones. I also have a genuine liking for Israel. Nevertheless, this particular statement is one I take issue with. Someone simply abandoning land is one thing. Fleeing for their life is entirely another. > When the people the original owners fled from then come along and say “well, this land/property seems to be abandoned. I think I’ll take it myself” it smacks of nothing more than armed robbery. > Regards > > Testy Well, it’s not exactly as you say, but the moral aspect of reality isn’t much better. Some of them fled from violence and such, undoubtedly. The empty land left behind was then classified as “abandoned” by the government, and was then redisributed to settlers. Not really just anybody, least of all the people that perpretrated the violence, came onto the land and appropriated it. I’m sure you can see how the government was pressured into releasing land that was classified as abandoned to the new settlers. Now, I’m not saying that was right. It’s not a very good way of doing things, somewhat akin to the Australian Government appropriating land that the Aboriginals were on simply because they didn’t use the land to farm, and thus didn’t really own the land. It’s pretty hard to see that they were in the moral right for that, but it remains for the issue to be taken up with the government. The government acted in it’s legal right, and the voters apparently don’t seem to think that compensation is necessary. Not quite armed robbery, but immoral nevertheless. However, completely legal and within their right. Sigh. And they wonder why lawyers are going to hell. ^^ ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/282 "2004-05-06T14:51:34Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Not quite armed robbery, but immoral nevertheless. However, completely legal and within their right. Sigh. And they wonder why lawyers are going to hell. ^^ Indeed. Problem is, many people use the argument of legal right to defend an action as somehow moral or morally justified. That’s why I took the question up with you - it seemed you were doing the same thing. It cuts both ways, really. Palestinians have the right to fight Israeli occupation, and they have the right to choose terrorist tactics to continue that fight. Doesn’t mean terrorism moral or morally justified simply because they have that right. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/283 "2004-05-06T14:59:02Z")
No. Terrorism is never a right. _Deliberately_ killing a pregnant woman and her three children is atrocious. These are acts by Palestinian scum ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/284 "2004-05-06T15:15:59Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Indeed. Problem is, many people use the argument of legal right to defend an action as somehow moral or morally justified. That’s why I took the question up with you - it seemed you were doing the same thing. > > It cuts both ways, really. Palestinians have the right to fight Israeli occupation, and they have the right to choose terrorist tactics to continue that fight. Doesn’t mean terrorism moral or morally justified simply because they have that right. I disagree with the part about the palestinians’ right to choose terrorist tactics. No one, for any reason, has the right to shoot a pregnant woman through the belly and then walk up and shoot her children as well. To then claim “credit” for the act or to celebrate it puts one outside the bounds of humanity. For my money, such acts are justification for some **extremely** cruel and unusual punishments. Oddly enough, I agree with you about the difference between moral and legal. I don’t believe morality has much to do with legality. From a pragmatic point of view, what should the Palestinians do? The terror tactics do nothing but piss off the Israelis and justify increasingly vicious reprisals. The bottom line is that the Israelis aren’t going to leave and the Arabs can’t do squat about it. The land is gone. The nation, if there ever was one, is also gone. There is nothing left to the Palestinians but useless wasteland and refugee camps. So, what’s your idea? The “unlimited right or return” you mentioned a few pages ago isn’t ever going to fly and you know it. Hell, if I was an Israeli and this idea ever reached the ballot box I’d shoot it down in a heartbeat. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/285 "2004-05-06T15:55:13Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > **Gum** , you’re wrong. Finn Again allowed the premise of the unlawful land grab. Pregnancy and infancy are never defenses to criminality. Try it with shoplifting and see. > > I referred explicitly to Finn Again’s premise, although to be fair I didn’t quote it. > > Appreciating how vehmently you hold the opinion, it’s only one opinion that it was murder and how it consequently reflects on the perpetrators. Another opinion could equally validly be held on how the facts present. I said I would allow, as a logical ‘given’ the premise that each and every Israeli was deliberately involved in this ‘land grabbing’ simply as a tactic to further discussion. The fact still remains. Even if this pregnant mother and her innocent **children** were, each and every day, helping build houses in the so called ‘occupied’ territories, with their own toddlers’ hands… it would still be the act of SCUM… To pump round after round into her body, to splatter her children’s brains all over, to shred the flesh of a mother and her unborn child… NO MATTER WHAT that is the act of scum you arrest and deport people who are trying to live in your country illegally. You’ don’t ‘summarily execute them’ Again, I put this question to you AND DON’T YOU DARE IGNORE IT AGAIN. You claim moral ambiguity, but I propose that you are willfully muddying the waters because it is Israel involved: Proof for my claim? Would you support the idea that if Israel thought there were Arabs on its land illegally, they could round them all up and shoot them in the head, point blank. If the IDF would find every Arab baby and hack them apart with machetes… Unless you’re going to say that’s okay… you’ve got some REAL soul searching to do as to why it’s okay to slaughter Jewish babies but not anybody else. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/286 "2004-05-06T16:25:19Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > The Palestinians did not abandon their lands to join the armies against Israel. They were pushed off by the Israelis. > > [http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/](http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/) Well… at least you found an anti-semite to use as your cite… Did you read that website??? The motherfucking Hollocaust Industry??? I myself know that the Shoah has nothing to do with the fact that I no longer have any extended family on my mother’s side because the Nazi’s butchered them all. It has nothing to do with the fact that the entire world sat back and watched… For your ‘cite’ to call the Jews ‘blackmailers’ because they wanted the Swiss to give back their stolen property? Simply to set matters straight: you might not want to use a raving anti-Semite to prove your points… In the future… you just might want to, I don’t know, use facts? [PLO charter, which calls for the annihilation of a separate Israeli state](http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Palestinian-Covenant.asp) How about some quotes, facts and figures from someone who doesn’t think that there is a Holocaust Industry [read the quotes](http://yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html) Just in case you’d like to cling to your anti-Semite’s webpage, here are some ARAB quotes about the refugees. (from the above url) > [@](#): > > The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down. > > - Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha’s successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951 > [@](#): > > · “The Arab exodus from other villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews” > > - Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953 > [@](#): > > · “…our city flourished and developed for the good of both Jewish and Arab residents … Do not destroy your homes with your own hands; do not bring tragedy upon yourselves by unnecessary evacuation and self-imposed burdens. By moving out you will be overtaken by poverty and humiliation. But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace, for you and your families.” > The Haifa Workers’ Council bulletin, 28 April 1948 > [@](#): > > · “…the Jewish hagana asked (using loudspeakers) Arabs to remain at their homes but the most of the Arab population followed their leaders who asked them to leave the country.” > The TIMES of London, reporting events of 22.4.48 > [@](#): > > " The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States’ opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously, and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs. > …The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families." > > - Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948 > [@](#): > > “Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.” > > - Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387 > [@](#): > > One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC’s threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go. > Commentary Magazine – January 2000 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/287 "2004-05-06T16:52:33Z")
[PLO Charter/Covenant](http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Palestinian-Covenant.asp) > [@](#): > > Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian. So, they admit they weren’t Palestinians but ARABS, I continue… > [@](#): > > Article 7: That there is a Palestinian community and that it has material, spiritual, and historical connection with Palestine are indisputable facts. It is a national duty to bring up individual Palestinians in an Arab revolutionary manner. All means of information and education must be adopted in order to acquaint the Palestinian with his country in the most profound manner, both spiritual and material, that is possible. He must be prepared for the armed struggle and ready to sacrifice his wealth and his life in order to win back his homeland and bring about its liberation. Where the PLO sets forth, in plain language, the desire to keep its people ignorant and militant. Notice, they didn’t say all means of information and education must be adopted to teach our people math and science, but to prepare them for armed struggle. > [@](#): > > Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it. So the PLO states that it was ALWAYS be at war with Israel. A good negotiating partner, right? > [@](#): > > Article 10: Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory. **”… mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution.”** Read: We want our people dumb and poor so they will pick up a gun and fight when we tell them to. > [@](#): > > Article 13: Arab unity and the liberation of Palestine are two complementary objectives, the attainment of either of which facilitates the attainment of the other. Thus, Arab unity leads to the liberation of Palestine, the liberation of Palestine leads to Arab unity; and work toward the realization of one objective proceeds side by side with work toward the realization of the other. The liberation of Palestine? The charter was written in 1964, the years before there was a green line. Thus… the destruction of Israel and the creation of a Palestinian state. > [@](#): > > Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine… \ Pretty damn unclear, right? What EVER could they have meant by “the elimination of Zionism in Palestine?” > [@](#): > > Article 18: The liberation of Palestine, from an international point of view, is a defensive action necessitated by the demands of self-defense. Accordingly the Palestinian people, desirous as they are of the friendship of all people, look to freedom-loving, and peace-loving states for support in order to restore their legitimate rights in Palestine, to re-establish peace and security in the country, and to enable its people to exercise national sovereignty and freedom. Just cuz you claim that it is defensive doesn’t mean it is. Anybody should be able to see the glaring logical errors in the first sentence. I would also point out that peace and security will be achieved when there is an end to terrorism and that, unless I was sadly mistaken, they can have sovereignty and freedom on the plot of land they’ve now got… > [@](#): > > Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal… \ So… Israel has no right to exist in the PLO’s eyes. > [@](#): > > Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong. Let’s get this straight… every international decree/mandate on Israel is null and void in the eyes of the PLO. And… there’s no historical or religious claim, that outdates the Palestinians’ by several MILLENIA??? > [@](#): > > Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization. **” reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine…”** But they’re negotiating in good faith, right? > [@](#): > > Article 22: Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland. **” Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence…”** So… Israel threatens the ENTIRE WORLD? Sounds just as wacky as claiming that the Jews had terrorized the entire middle east and provoked the war in ’48. And, again, the liberation of Palestine will DESTROY the Zionist presence… You think they’re talking about a big Ice Cream Social? AND FOR THOSE WHO CLAIM THAT THE PLO IS NOT RESPONSIBLE > [@](#): > > Article 26: The Palestine Liberation Organization, representative of the Palestinian revolutionary forces, is **responsible for the Palestinian Arab people’s movement in its struggle** - to retrieve its homeland, liberate and return to it and exercise the right to self-determination in it – **in all military, political, and financial fields and also for whatever may be required** by the Palestine case on the inter-Arab and international levels. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/288 "2004-05-06T17:30:07Z")
> [@Testy](#): > > I disagree with the part about the palestinians’ right to choose terrorist tactics. No one, for any reason, has the right to shoot a pregnant woman through the belly and then walk up and shoot her children as well. While it is true that shooting a pregnant woman and her four children is terrorism, it does not follow that all terrorism is limited exclusively to this type of act. Exercising the right to choose to resort to terrorism does not automatically lead to the conclusion that people are going to choose to shoot women and children. It depends on the circumstances under which the battle occurs. If circumstances are such that choosing the option of terrorism would likely lead to such acts being committed, then it should be argued that terrorism is not the option to choose. There are other ways of breaking the will of the enemy that wouldn’t be as quick to arouse moral indignation, even in the staunchest of your supporters. > [@](#): > > To then claim “credit” for the act or to celebrate it puts one outside the bounds of humanity. For my money, such acts are justification for some **extremely** cruel and unusual punishments. Leading to the question: punishment of whom? The individual perpetrators, or punishment of the people as a whole? Israel is engaging in collective punishment - another form of terrorism - that does nothing but stir up deeper resentment and hatred. > [@](#): > > From a pragmatic point of view, what should the Palestinians do? The terror tactics do nothing but piss off the Israelis and justify increasingly vicious reprisals. That’s a good question, but unfortunately it’s one the Palestinians themselves have to answer. Their oppression by Israel has driven many of them to such desperation that individual terror exercises a very powerful attractive influence. The only way to combat that is to seriously and critically examine the situation on the ground - something none of us are able to do since we’re not there. > [@](#): > > The bottom line is that the Israelis aren’t going to leave and the Arabs can’t do squat about it. Except fight like hell. > [@](#): > > The land is gone. The nation, if there ever was one, is also gone. There is nothing left to the Palestinians but useless wasteland and refugee camps. So, what’s your idea? Fight to take the land back. I will say, however, that the only “Israel” I believe should be pushed into the sea is the geopolitical entity. Not the people who live there. The resulting country should be democratic - full and equal rights for anyone to live wherever they please, inside or outside what is now the Occupied Territories, the unconditional right of return granted to Arabs, or full compensation for the land if return is fundamentally impossible; and secular - the resulting state offering no support whatsoever to religious organizations and institutions, while protecting the right of Muslims, Christians, and Jews to worship openly, freely, and without fear of persecution. > [@](#): > > The “unlimited right or return” you mentioned a few pages ago isn’t ever going to fly and you know it. Hell, if I was an Israeli and this idea ever reached the ballot box I’d shoot it down in a heartbeat. What gives any Israeli the moral right to determine what the Palestinians should and should not have? Legally, sure they have one, but as we both agree, what’s legal is not necessarily what’s moral. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/289 "2004-05-06T17:55:08Z")
[QUOTE=Olentzero] I will say, however, that the only “Israel” I believe should be pushed into the sea is the geopolitical entity. Not the people who live there. The resulting country should be democratic - full and equal rights for anyone to live wherever they please, inside or outside what is now the Occupied Territories, the unconditional right of return granted to Arabs, or full compensation for the land if return is fundamentally impossible; and secular - the resulting state offering no support whatsoever to religious organizations and institutions, while protecting the right of Muslims, Christians, and Jews to worship openly, freely, and without fear of persecution. [QUOTE] Um, apart from the fact that, well, even before the whole intefada business, Arabs were already trying to wipe Israel off the map. Yeah, real likelihood of that happening. As, well, you know, Jerusalem (um, birthplace of the Jewish faith?) not being under Israeli control allows Muslims, Christians, and Jews to worship openly, freely, and without fear of persecution. Even before 1948, and the whole “aggression of the Jews by setting up a state”. Sure thing. Anyway, my job is done - Israel has the right to do whatever it wants with the land over which it has jurisdiction, and it certainly had the right to exist. Moral issues, well, they’ll never be settled, so have fun. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/290 "2004-05-06T18:19:46Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > \ > Leading to the question: punishment of whom? The individual perpetrators, or punishment of the people as a whole? Israel is engaging in collective punishment - another form of terrorism - that does nothing but stir up deeper resentment and hatred.That’s a good question, but unfortunately it’s one the Palestinians themselves have to answer. Their oppression by Israel has driven many of them to such desperation that individual terror exercises a very powerful attractive influence. The only way to combat that is to seriously and critically examine the situation on the ground - something none of us are able to do since we’re not there.Except fight like hell.Fight to take the land back. OK then. The whole “punishment” thing, either collective or personal, is easily justified when the Palestinians commit this kind of atrocity. The strategy isn’t working. As far as the “fight to get the land back” bit, the Israelis aren’t going to allow the PA to develop an effective military force. They’d be fools to do so. So, the PA is left with this kind of asymetrical warfare. It isn’t like they can force the Israelis to “go home,” that _is_ their home. The PA is going to lose, and keep on losing. They can cause a lot of revulsion with these kinds of tactics but they do not impact Israel’s ability to wage war. What is the point? > [@](#): > > I will say, however, that the only “Israel” I believe should be pushed into the sea is the geopolitical entity. Not the people who live there. The resulting country should be democratic - full and equal rights for anyone to live wherever they please, inside or outside what is now the Occupied Territories, the unconditional right of return granted to Arabs, or full compensation for the land if return is fundamentally impossible; and secular - the resulting state offering no support whatsoever to religious organizations and institutions, while protecting the right of Muslims, Christians, and Jews to worship openly, freely, and without fear of persecution.What gives any Israeli the moral right to determine what the Palestinians should and should not have? Legally, sure they have one, but as we both agree, what’s legal is not necessarily what’s moral. I don’t think morality really enters into it. The Israelis fear their neighbors, and can easily supply justification for doing so. Regardless of who was the initial aggressor, _right now_ the Israelis are scared of what will happen if they let their guard down for a moment. Why should the Israelis gamble the future of their country on someone else’s goodwill? I sure wouldn’t. The country you describe sounds wonderful but I don’t see it happening in _that_ area. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![kezami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eb8c5e/32.png) [@kezami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kezami)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/291 "2004-05-06T19:05:17Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > The resulting country should be democratic - full and equal rights for anyone to live wherever they please, inside or outside what is now the Occupied Territories, the unconditional right of return granted to Arabs, or full compensation for the land if return is fundamentally impossible; and secular - the resulting state offering no support whatsoever to religious organizations and institutions, while protecting the right of Muslims, Christians, and Jews to worship openly, freely, and without fear of persecution.What gives any Israeli the moral right to determine what the Palestinians should and should not have? Legally, sure they have one, but as we both agree, what’s legal is not necessarily what’s moral. Israel **is** a democratic country with equal rights for its arab citizens. Tell me, shouldn’t the above argument also apply to the other arab countries in the ME such as Iran, Syria etc,…oh but they have to be democratic to be included in the club…forgot. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/292 "2004-05-06T19:09:25Z")
Hey, **Olentzero**. I don’t mean to jump your shit given the current onslaught. If you have some time, I (and probably other readers) would appreciate it if you could clarify your position on the following issue: > [@](#): > > While it is true that shooting a pregnant woman and her four children is terrorism, it does not follow that all terrorism is limited exclusively to this type of act. Exercising the right to choose to resort to terrorism does not automatically lead to the conclusion that people are going to choose to shoot women and children. It depends on the circumstances under which the battle occurs. If circumstances are such that choosing the option of terrorism would likely lead to such acts being committed, then it should be argued that terrorism is not the option to choose. There are other ways of breaking the will of the enemy that wouldn’t be as quick to arouse moral indignation, even in the staunchest of your supporters. I had to read this a few times to parse it, and I am still not entirely certain what conclusions you are drawing and from which premises. As I understand it, here are your premises: [ul] [li]Individuals and groups have the “right” to exercise terrorism under certain circumstances.[/li][li]There are different classes of terrorist acts.[/li][li]Embracing the practice of some classes of terrorism does not automatically entail embracing the practice of all classes of terrorism.[/li][li]Terrorists choose which class to perpetrate based on the “circumstances of the battle.”[/li][/ul] From which you conclude that: If the likelihood of commission of a prohibited class of terrorism is high, then no terrorist act should be performed. My following questions are based on the above logic. If I am in any way misrepresenting you, it is unintentional. In order to understand your position better, I would appreciate it if you could answer some questions. If you don’t wish to or don’t have time, well, life is tough. [ul] [li]What are the classes of terrorism?[/li][li]Which ones do the Palestinians have a right to practice and which ones don’t they?[/li][li]How high does the likelihood of the performance of a prohibited class of terrorism have to be such that terrorism should not be employed at all?[/li][li]Does the detonation of belt bombs, bike bombs, and bus bombs in crowded locations that are frequently populated by pregnant women and children constitute prohibited terrorist acts? Why or why not?[/li][li]Does the commission of prohibited classes of terrorism morally undermine the cause of the terrorists? If not, then why are the attacks morally prohibited in the first place?[/li][/ul] Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/293 "2004-05-06T19:22:23Z")
“The PA is going to lose, and keep on losing”. Indeed. They might have had sympathy - [financial]support, even - from a lot of countries, but they’re losing that too. Any thinking person, with the ability to _see_ knows they’re losing, by their own damn fault. No-one wants to support the murders of a pregnant mom and her children by Palestinian scum ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/294 "2004-05-06T20:21:10Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Just to be clear, I am not attempting to defend or condone Palestinian terrorism, nor am I trying to make it seem somehow less offensive by comparison to other acts of terrorism perpetrated elsewhere by others. I just do not see the point of making a special effort to vilify the Palestinians as if they had the monopoly on terror. Somehow I missed this the first time around. What the Palestinians _do_ have a monopoly on is suicide terror targeted at civilians. The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, who have perpetrated far more suicide bombings than all of the Palestinian groups combined, strike predominantly military and governmental targets. I picked 1996 at random. Out of 11 LTTE suicide attacks, only 3 were targeted at civilians (a bank, a public rally, and a market). In the 1980s, during the Hezbollah campaign against Israel, Hezbollah detonated predominantly military targets in Lebanon. But in the 90s, something changed. From 1994-1997, every single Hamas/Islamic Jihad suicide attack (16 in total) targeted strictly civilians in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Netzarim, Beit Lid, Ashkelon, etc. These are not SLA or IDF patrols/outposts that were targeted, but buses, markets, weddings, etc. This sets the Palestinians apart from every other major terrorist group that employs suicide attacks: the PKK in Turkey, the Chechen Separatists, the Kashmir Separatists, and the LTTE. All the rest attacked predominantly military and political targets. What makes this group different from all other groups? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/295 "2004-05-06T20:38:16Z")
They’re scum? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/296 "2004-05-06T20:48:57Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Somehow I missed this the first time around. What the Palestinians _do_ have a monopoly on is suicide terror targeted at civilians. With all due respect, **Maeglin** , surely you’re not insinuating the Palestinians had anything to do with September 11th? And for those playing along at home, I’m not cherrypicking from posts. **Maeg** ’s earlier post asking me several questions on terrorism has got me seriously considering my position, and will probably result in the beginning of another thread entirely so as not to distract from what debate is still occurring here about Israel. **kezami** , as I’ve said before in this thread, my support for the Palestinian cause does not extend to support for the governments of the surrounding Arab countries. My call for greater democracy in Israel is matched by a call for greater democracy in the Middle East as a whole, and that whole stand is underpinned by my support for the right of the Arab populations in the Middle East to self-determination - that is, the right to form their own, independent governments - and their right to fight for the right of self-determination if it is denied to them by others. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/297 "2004-05-06T20:59:50Z")
**Olentzero** Why don’t you answer **Maeglin** ’s question, instead of trying to point us in another way? Originally posted by **Maeglin** :\* But in the 90s, something changed. From 1994-1997, every single Hamas/Islamic Jihad suicide attack (16 in total) targeted strictly civilians in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Netzarim, Beit Lid, Ashkelon, etc. These are not SLA or IDF patrols/outposts that were targeted, but buses, markets, weddings, etc. This sets the Palestinians apart from every other major terrorist group that employs suicide attacks: the PKK in Turkey, the Chechen Separatists, the Kashmir Separatists, and the LTTE. All the rest attacked predominantly military and political targets. What makes this group different from all other groups? \* [aside that they’re scum, ofcourse] ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/298 "2004-05-06T21:08:24Z")
> [@](#): > > With all due respect, Maeglin, surely you’re not insinuating the Palestinians had anything to do with September 11th? Oh, hell no, I didn’t mean to give that impression. To put it crudely, I was measuring civilian suicide terrorism by volume, not by weight. Al Qaeda is responsible for six attacks between Nov 13, 1995 and Sept. 11, 2001. Of those six attacks, only one, the WTC, was a civilian target. The others include: a US base in Riyadh, a US base in Dharan, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the USS Cole in Yemen, Ahmed Shah Massoud in Afghanistan, and the Pentagon. Measured by frequency, 9/11 only represents 17% of Al Qaeda’s total suicide terror attacks. This is a fairly reasonable proportion compared to the other aforementioned terrorist organizations that avail themselves of suicide attacks. The outliers in this case are the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > and will probably result in the beginning of another thread entirely so as not to distract from what debate is still occurring here about Israel. I would love to participate in this thread, so if you do start one, kindly drop us a link here. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/299 "2004-05-06T21:19:44Z")
> [@gum](#): > > **Olentzero** Why don’t you answer **Maeglin** ’s question, instead of trying to point us in another way? Despite appearances to the contrary, **gum** , I work a full-time job _and_ I have other political activities I help to coordinate during my working day (when the boss isn’t around, of course). **Maeglin** ’s statement about the monopoly of terrorism jumped out at me first and I responded to that one quickly while I had a few moments. I now have no time to answer anything until I get home much later tonight, at which point I will answer **Maeg** ’s other questions in both his posts, since I will have the leisure to do so. In other words, get the hell off my case, Jack. I’ve only fucking got two hands. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186/300 "2004-05-06T21:44:43Z")
Word. I am just really glad that you are going to take some time to answer my questions. It certainly beats firing off a quick reply, it being nitpicked, and having to backtrack. Take your time. You may work a full-time job, but I am a full-time grad student embroiled in exams and my MA paper. Ergo, I am at home on the computer all day. I know this is the pit, but this thread is six fucking pages long. There is some real substance here. We can do without some of the frothing and foaming, I think. It doesn’t really help anyone, certainly not those who are on the fence on this issue. It sure as shit doesn’t fucking persuade anyone that Israel is in the right to have a legion of people fulminating about revisionism, scum, pigheaded fucking liars, etc. I am glad that this thread has at least calmed down from that. I am not trying to take a pretty mellow tone because I don’t care. My great-grandfather Abraham was a pioneer, close friend, and ultimately a roommate of David ben Gurion’s. Abraham and a bunch of his buddies bought a large swath of land in Palestine long before statehood and tried to make a living for themselves. Returning to Europe was impossible after the war for obvious reasons. Every night a bunch of settlers had to camp outside with their rifles: the proto-Palestinians were extremely fond of returning to the land they’d sold and attacking the settlers, taking their property, and raping their women. The British mandate certainly didn’t enforce the property rights of the original settlers, and the Arabs saw little reason to honor contracts they had made since no one was around to enforce them. The land my great-grandfather settled was purchased, developed, and defended by his people, European Jewish emigres. My feelings on this so-called “right to return” are unambiguous. I suppose I am telling this story for two reasons. First, I think it’s a pretty fucking cool story. 🙂 Not too many celebrities in my family, nor pioneering badasses. Second, because this is an issue I care about, I am trying to keep it cool so we can all benefit from open discussion. I think that if we can all do the same, we might learn something. **Olentzero** is going to go home and give this some thought. Perhaps we all should, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-scum/243186.md?page=16)