# Palestinian Solution = MidEast Peace? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048 "2002-04-11T16:27:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/1 "2002-04-11T16:27:56Z")
Yes… I’m starting a MidEast Thread. The question I’m asking here is this: A lot of attention is being paid to the question of Israel’s actions against the Palestinian Authority. A heap of international pressure (with quite a helping from the US) is being piled on Israel to “settle” and “make peace” with the “Palestinians.” But, isn’t this is a short-sighted goal? The fact of the matter is, whether you blame the Israelis for trampling the rights of the “Palestinians” or you blame the “Palestinians” for unjustified terrorist attacks against Israelis, you’re missing the point. The Palestinian Problem is not the cause of the current unrest in the MidEast; It’s a result. Ending the current hostilities is a short-sighted goal that will do nothing to keep the same from happening again. Soon. Comments? ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/2 "2002-04-11T17:11:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > \*\* The Palestinian Problem is not the cause of the current unrest in the MidEast; It’s a result. Ending the current hostilities is a short-sighted goal that will do nothing to keep the same from happening again. Soon. > > Comments? \*\* That is a very good point, but ending the current situation the right way may bring about a lasting peace. What is the right way? IMO, the Palestinians must have a state, the territory must be equitably established. The Israelis must have a guarantee of security, and that means from the international community, not just from Palestine. The question is will the radical factions on both sides allow this? The Israeli government can enforce a peace on their side, Palestine has yet to be established, but with the current leadership it is doubtful that they can enforce anything on their end. And once and for all, Israel should not be in a position to justify their existence. Most of the countries in the area are far from being historical fact, so for them to not recognize Israel is nonsense on the face of it. Dealing with terrorism is not an easy business; those who blame Israel for cruelty toward Palestinians should try their hand at it, and see how they do at protecting a population while trying to go after murderers in another crowded population. Not a simple task at all. No doubt that a resolution of this issue must be included in any long-term peace. I have another question to add to yours, if you don’t mind sdimbert. We have seen some horrible wars in the last hundred years, and yet the parties involved in those wars have moved on to a peaceful and co-operative existence. Why is this region so different? ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/3 "2002-04-11T17:29:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tradesilicon \* > \*\*Why is this region so different? \*\* [ul] [li]“Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel.”[/li]-Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser, May 27, 1967 [li]“The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map.”[/li]-Iraqui President Abdel Rahman Aref, May 31, 1967 [li]“The goal of our struggle is the end of Israel, and there can be no compromise.”[/li]-PLO Chairman Yassar Arafat, _Washington Post_, March 29, 1970 [li]“The battle with Israel must be such tat, after it, Israel will cease to exist.”[/li]-Libyan President Muammar Qaddafi, Algiers Radio, November 12, 1973 [/ul] And if those don’t resonate enough, consider this: \*\* > [@](#): > > “Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations. Since January 1965, when Fatah was born, we have become the most dangerous enemy that Israel has… We shall not rest until the day when we return to our home, and until we destroy Israel…” > \*\*-Yassar Arafat, _El Mundo, Caracas, Venezuela, February 11, 1980._ Nothing has changed since 1948. The words are still the same, and still, no one believes them. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/4 "2002-04-11T20:30:21Z")
Those quotes are kind of old, don’t you think, **sdimbert**? Things can change over the decades: Camp David way back in 1978 removed the Egyptian context from the above, and this is from the recent [Beirut Declaration](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/monitoring/media_reports/newsid_1899000/1899395.stm): [quote] **Expectations from Israel** [list=A][li]Complete withdrawal from the occupied Arab territories, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the 4 June 1967 line and the territories still occupied in southern Lebanon.[_]Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194.[_]Accept the establishment of an independent and sovereign Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since 4 June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital.[/list]In return the Arab states will do the following:[ul][_] **Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict over** , sign a peace agreement with Israel, and achieve peace for all states in the region[_]Establish normal relations with Israel within the framework of this comprehensive peace[/ul][/li][/quote] (My emphasis) You may not trust their words, but what other basis is there for peace? Though the words of Arafat are indeed chilling, [18 years later](http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9812/14/clinton.gaza.02/): > [@](#): > > Palestinian leaders on Monday reaffirmed the nullification of clauses in the charter of the Palestine Liberation Organization calling for Israel’s destruction (Before anyone jumps on this, yes I know it was never written down put on their website, but I am responding quote-for-quote with a 2 year old cite, not an 18-year-old one). ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/5 "2002-04-12T04:30:09Z")
**sdimbert** , it’s not like there’s a choice. The Palestinians aren’t going anywhere. Your choices: 1 - Annex the territories, which would immediately turn Israel into a majority Arab state. 2 - Continue the occupation. Another non-starter. 3 - Return the West Bank to Jordan, and the Gaza to Egypt. Forget it, they don’t want them back. 4 - So the only thing left is negotiating acceptable terms for a Palestinian state. All of the arguing for a while and until this gets settled will be over what constitutes “acceptable terms”. It may not bring complete peace & security, but it’ll be a sight better than the current status quo. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/6 "2002-04-12T14:16:08Z")
**pantom** , you say, “the only thing left is negotiating acceptable terms for a Palestinian state.” Had the Arab States in the region not attacked in 1948 in an attempt to block the UN Partition Plan, The Republic of Palestine would today be celebrating it’s 44th anniversary. Or, had they not started a half-a-dozen wars with Israel since then, they might have settled the conflict long ago. From 1948 to 1967, the West Bank and Gaza were under Arab rule with no Jewish “settlers.” Despite this opportunity, no attempts at the creation of a “Palestinian Homeland” were undertaken by any Arab nation. Instead, Egypt occupied Gaza and Jordan the West Bank. No demands were ever made for an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza until after Israel took control of those areas in the Six-Day War. In the 1950’s, tiny Israel absorbed 820,000 Jews that had been driven from the surrounding Arab states. Those Arab nations - which together cover over 5,000,000 square miles - have space and money enough to absorb the “Palestinians.” They always have. This refusal to ameliorate the suffering of these people demonstrates that these Arab nations are more interested in using the refugees as a political weapon in the War Against Israel they they are in solving their problems. I return to my point: The plight of the “Palestinian” Refugees is not the problem here; it is the result of a conflict which stems from the Arab unwillingness to accept the existence of a Jewish State in the MidEast. Now, **pantom** , tell me: How does Israel “negotiate” with the people who said the things I quoted in my OP? > [@](#): > > **The struggle with the Zionist enemy is not a struggle about Israel’s borders, but about Israel’s existence.** \* > -Bassam Abu Sharif, top Arafat aide and PLO spokesman, Kuwait News Agency, May 31, 1986\* ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/7 "2002-04-12T14:43:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > **Now, pantom, tell me: How does Israel “negotiate” with the people who said the things I quoted in my OP?** **sdimbert** , am I on your ‘ignore’ list, or have you either missed my post above, or chosen not to comment thereon? ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/8 "2002-04-12T15:11:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\ ***sdimbert** , am I on your ‘ignore’ list, or have you either missed my post above, or chosen not to comment thereon? \*\* I can have an “Ignore” List? 😃 No, **jjimm** , I’m not ignoring your comments… I’m still thinking about how to respond. You see, I started a new thread precisely to avoid some of the complications you’re raising. The history of the MidEast Arab/Israeli Peace Conflict goes back to at least 1948. Actually, it started earlier than that, but before then, there was no “Israel.” In any case, I needed a place to start, and I chose one. You see, recent events made me realize that I didn’t know enough about the history to have an informed opinion. So I started reading. And now I’m trying to understand what I’ve read. The things you posted are accurate… in a sense. But I believe (and this is the point of this thread) that the real issue began earlier, is much simpler, and is worthy of our attention. The plain fact of the matter is that the Arab nations of the MidEast are opposed to the existence of a Jewish state. Totally. Without compromise. Any negotiations that have occured since 1948 are, in my mind, tainted by this pre-disposition. I want to establish this point because I believe it’s been hidden (by design) by the history of agreements made - and broken - by Arafat and other Arab leaders. Today’s media coverage is too concerned with the Conflict Of The Day ™ to juxtapose it with its history. Does that answer your question? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/9 "2002-04-12T15:21:54Z")
**pantom** , negotiating would be nice…but negotiation requires give-and-take. At Camp David in 2000, Yassir Arafat received an offer he didn’t like. But instead of making a counter-offer, he just left the table. What would you recommend Israel do in light of that…even if we ignore the hostilities that arose since then? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/10 "2002-04-12T15:43:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > **The plain fact of the matter is that the Arab nations of the MidEast are opposed to the existence of a Jewish state. Totally. Without compromise. Any negotiations that have occured since 1948 are, in my mind, tainted by this pre-disposition. I want to establish this point because I believe it’s been hidden (by design) by the history of agreements made - and broken - by Arafat and other Arab leaders.** Arafat aside, the argument about this predisposition from neighbouring states (and ‘buffer zones’ by extension) doesn’t ring true. As I said before, all the quotes you have provided are very old. There _has been_ negotiation in recent years, and in the offer from the Arab League, a committment to the acceptance of Israel of a state has been offered. I think many of us in the West have a glib view of how to ‘fix’ the problem, without realising how many small steps need to be taken towards peace. For the entire Arab League to put this offer on the table in return only for Israel pulling back to pre-67 borders is one of the most important things that Israel has been offered since its creation. Furthermore I don’t think we have any idea of quite how hard it must have been for all members to agree. [Eyal Benvenisti](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=148158&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=148158) from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, writing in the Ha’aretz Daily, agrees with me. IMO this is a once-in-a-lifetime chance. “Speak softly and carry a big stick”, of course, but to dismiss all negotiation and agreements based on the terrible events of the past is not the way to negotiate peace, and would surely condemn Israel to eternal paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/11 "2002-04-12T15:58:26Z")
\*\*_by sdimbert_ The plain fact of the matter is that the Arab nations of the MidEast are opposed to the existence of a Jewish state. Totally. Without compromise. [/QUOTE] In the name of all that’s good, **sdimbert** , how long is the past the present to you? For 25 years Egypt has been at peace with Israel and made no agressive moves toward it. Would 50 years be sufficient for you to believe that Egypt no longer is opposed to the existence of a Jewish state “totally. Without compromise?” A hundred years? And while Jordan didn’t sign a peace treaty until the mid-90s, it’s been cooperating with Israel for decades. Peace can be made between Arabs and Israelis. The question for the Israel and the remaining enemies is what can make that peace come about. To believe otherwise is to believe that people and beliefs can’t change. And, of course, they can. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/12 "2002-04-12T18:00:19Z")
Maybe those quotes are old, but here are some newer ones that show that Arab & Muslim attitudes have not changed: [Leading Egyptian Government Cleric Calls For: “Martyrdom Attacks that Strike Horror into the Hearts of the Enemies of Allah”](http://memri.org/news.html#1018042383) [Saudi Government Daily Praises Passover and Jerusalem Market Suicide Bombers](http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=11306) [in 1996, Arafat told Arab diplomats that the PLO’s strategy was “to make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion,” and that its objective was “to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state,”](http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/26/Columns/Columns.45921.html) (scroll down to see this quote; note that this was **after** he earned the Nobel Peace Prize) And if that’s not enough… [Jihad for Kids](http://www.wtvt.com/investreptr/jihad.html) ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/13 "2002-04-12T18:07:30Z")
Since the last quote was actually part of an editorial, here’s another source for the same: [Yasser Arafat - Man of Peace or an International Thug?](http://www.lamblion.com/prophecy/Jews-Israel/Jews-04.html) ---
**Author:** ![Toaster52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@Toaster52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toaster52)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/14 "2002-04-12T18:25:33Z")
First of all, I agree that peace between Israel and its surrounding Arab neighbors is _possible_. Witness the relations with Egypt and Jordan. _PROBABLE_, however, is another matter. May I point out that neither of those states has an active population dedicated to the destruction of Israel? It’s fairly easy to maintain peaceful relations with a neighbor that isn’t attacking you. (These are generalizations, I realize…there probably ARE some people in both Egypt and Jordan that want to/are engaged in attacking Israel; but they are a minority, and they certainly don’t have their governments active support/backing). This is informative as to the mindset of Palestinians: [http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020408/viewpoint.html](http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020408/viewpoint.html) Please note that this Palestinian doctor identifies this as an **ARAB** conflict, not a **Palestinian** conflict. ARAB…and by extension, ALL Arabs. > [@](#): > > \*a long history of humiliation and a desire for revenge that **every** Arab harbors. \* (emphasis mine) and this: > [@](#): > > _Since the establishment of Israel in 1948 and the resultant uprooting of Palestinians, a deep-seated feeling of shame has taken root in the Arab psyche. Shame is the most painful emotion in the Arab culture, producing the feeling that one is unworthy to live. The honorable Arab is the one who refuses to suffer shame and dies in dignity._ Personally, I’d still rather be alive…but for crying out loud, this is a case of _losing face_? Good GOD… > [@](#): > > _Suddenly Palestinians felt that they were restoring their honor by fighting the aggressor, by not being helpless victims. Facing a superior Israeli army with its formidable arsenal, they felt morally victorious as the children of the stones became heroes of defiance. While that sense of victory served Arafat as a psychological platform to launch **his** peace initiative and **recognition of Israel** _ (emphasis mine)…HUH??? Maybe I missed something…can anyone supply me with a cite where the Oslo accords was initiated by Arafat…or his full, legal, diplomatic recognition of the state of Israel??? > [@](#): > > _Scores of Palestinians were killed and maimed as Sharon declared his intention to cause as many casualties as possible._ Again…huh?? Can anyone supply me with a cite where Sharon is quoted as saying that? > [@](#): > > _Palestinian militants shifted their target to the exposed Israeli civilians in markets and cafes. For the extremist militant, there is no difference between Israelis. They are the enemy; **they are all the same** _. (emphasis mine) Even women and children going shopping at the mall… from here: [http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/020415/opinion/15edit.htm](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/020415/opinion/15edit.htm) > [@](#): > > _Because under Oslo, the Israelis transferred administrative authority for 98 percent of the Palestinians to a Palestinian administration and even fitted them out with 40,000 armed police in the hopes that they would maintain their own security. Further, at Camp David and Taba, Israel offered to turn over 97 percent of the disputed territories plus the Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem to Palestinian sovereignty and a Palestinian state, only to have this offer to withdraw rejected._ > [@](#): > > \*To assess PA intentions, it is relevant to remember that the Palestine Liberation Organization was formed in **1964** –when the West Bank and Gaza were _under Arab sovereignty_; when there were _no settlements_ on the West Bank, _no access to the old city of Jerusalem nor to the holy places critical to Jewish history and identity_. It was not the presence of Jews in these places that prompted the terrorist harassment and vicious antisemitism of the Palestinians back in those earlier days. \*\*It was antipathy to the very existence of Israel. \*\*\* (emphasis mine) Maybe I’m being simplistic, but to me this is clear: Egypt recognized Israel and signed a peace treaty…_and Israel turned over territories taken from Egypt by war and has not attacked Egypt since._ Jordan recognized Israel and signed a peace treaty…_and Israel has not attacked Jordan since!!!_ To me, even the densest of individuals should be able to realize that the surest way to peace with Israel is to **STOP ATTACKING IT!!!** And I’d be willing to bet that if Israel WERE to be assured that they WERE at peace, that there were going to be no more bombings, that Israel (and probably with huge financial backing from the good old USofA) would work very hard to re-build the infrastructure of whatever Palestinian state that is established. Trading partners and all that… But as of right now (4-12-2002), there are still substantial numbers of Palestinian Arabs, Iraqi Arabs, Saudi Arabian Arabs…Arabs…who want nothing more **(AND HAVE NEVER DENIED)** than the complete eradication of the Israeli state. Permanently and forever. No wonder peace in the Middle East is so hard to abtain. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinian-solution-mideast-peace/103048/15 "2002-04-13T05:03:31Z")
**cmkeller** and **sdimbert** , I agree with you about the difficulty of negotiating. As of now, there isn’t anyone to negotiate with. But there really isn’t a choice. Yes, Yasir Arafat has proven himself, to my satisfaction, to be an unrepentant terrorist. Yes, the Arab attitude is one of ignoring Israeli civilian casualties whilst playing up Palestinian ones, simultaneously ignoring the difference between casualties caused as a result of war and casualties deliberately inflicted as a tactic of terrorism. ( See any thread started by our own **tclouie** for a real-time illustration of this asymmetrical attitude in action. (Alliteration! Wow!) ) All of this is true. None of it changes the basic fact that Gaza is not going back to Egypt, the West Bank isn’t going back to Jordan, the occupation can’t go on forever, and Israel can’t annex them without causing a) a large uproar and possibly a truly cataclysmic war and b) snuffing out its own existence as a Jewish state by the simple act of doing so. Hard facts, but even Sharon realizes that eventually there will have to be a Palestinian state, and that eventually he will have to negotiate with someone. First, as I have stated elsewhere, the militant Islamic fundamentalists have to be ruthlessly and mercilessly dealt with, as do all the other terrorists. Bush has to step back and let Sharon do what he has to do. After that, though, somehow some common ground is going to have to be found somewhere. Don’t ask me where; I’m not that wise, especially after these last two years of unrelenting terrorism. It’s just that it really is an unavoidable necessity.