# Palestinians torture son; force him to falsely implicate his widowed mother of 7 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2002, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565 "2002-08-26T03:35:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/41 "2002-08-26T11:50:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \*Do you think that highlighting the abuses of the **Palestinian Authority** has any relation to the merits of the Palestinian peoples’ grievances against Israel.(bloding mine) I believe this is the handywork of Al Aqsa. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/42 "2002-08-26T11:55:24Z")
**Coldie** , that’s worthy of being made into a Mastercard™ ad. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/43 "2002-08-26T12:08:36Z")
Nah, **Eferem** , even if you believe that the Israelis are evil Zionist oppressers, you need to be objective and admit that the PA is pretty damn corrupt and abusive to its people. Al Aqsa isn’t taking the bribes, arresting dissidents, and skimming the taxes. If we are asking **December** to admit the flaws of his side, you need to do the same. Admitting the flaws of the PA in no way affects the justice of the Palestinian cause. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/44 "2002-08-26T12:22:00Z")
**Efrem** : **gobear** beat me to it, but al-Aqsa has arguably close ties to senior elements of the PA. It _probably_ ( my own supposition ) functions as the PA’s street-cred political counter to Hamas and Islamic Jihad ( at least the first of which has made serious inroads into the political base of the PA/PLO by playing the “more-militant-than-thou” card ). There is no reason to defend the PA much ( as opposed to the Palestinian people ) - It is a brutal and repressive regime which is certainly a big part of the problem. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/45 "2002-08-26T12:27:10Z")
By the way, I assume it goes without saying that I am not in any way endorsing **december’s** simplistic and single-minded views. I know most regulars won’t make that mistake, but just in case there are any confused lurkers/newbies ;). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/46 "2002-08-26T12:28:48Z")
december, Twenty-five members replying so far… we have seen one (1) agree with OP. Three (3) took no direct position as regards the OP. Twenty-one (21) flamed you, rebuked you, rectified your nonsense, and/or just distanced themselves to your person. That means that you are getting agreement from single digit percentages in this thread. That’s pretty dramatic considering that when someone gets unjustly flamed the supporters of his/her cause usually chime in with response… that has previously happened even with you. The past weeks have revealed you to be so far out on the loony fringe that all the support you can pander is milroyj?¿? Not even hard core conservatives seem ready to come out and support you anymore. It is time to see the writing on the wall december. You’re making an absolute spectacle of yourself and by extension the cause you support. You’re not changing anyone’s mind, you’re not even reinforcing already existing opinion. You’re just making it really hard to be pro-Israel and reinforcing the arguments of any potential anti-Israel member that steps in. Sparc PS Efrem: Amen to what gobear and Tamerlane said. DS ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/47 "2002-08-26T12:31:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > \*\*By the way, I assume it goes without saying that I am not in any way endorsing **december’s** simplistic and single-minded views. > > - Tamerlane \*\* It seems that even **december** himself isn’t prepared to come in here and defend those viewpoints. ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/48 "2002-08-26T12:48:01Z")
Well, I just feel so badly for that poor boy, his now murdered mother, and the family he will have to raise in his mother’s absence. Even though it’s the fault of the Al Aqsa brutes who perpetrated this crime and did at least have the decency to feel some horror that they would be depriving children of their mother, this child will have to live with the fact that he was tortured into turning his mother in–whether or not she or he are actually guilty of the crimes they were accused of. He’s going to have to face his siblings who will know and his immediate community who will know. Isn’t there some Islamic saying that Paradise lay at the feet of the mother? I’m sure I’ve completely messed up the sentiment and wording of that phrase, but I think it goes something like that. Still, how he will get through this and not be mentally scarred I don’t know. I also feel terribly that folks like **december** are just appropriating this family’s misfortune for their own illogical agendas. [sigh] ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/49 "2002-08-26T13:04:15Z")
**Gobear, Tamerlane, Efrem** - let’s not hijack this thread into a rational, well-argued debate. (After all, this is the Pit). Let it lie for history as what it is: a pure and shining OP-aranoia, feted with garlands of ridicule, rebuke and revulsion. ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/50 "2002-08-26T13:19:18Z")
[hijack] **Gobear** , **Tamerlane** , and **Sparc**. Please let it be known that in my previous post I was **not** defending the PA or absolving it of past or current injustices. I was merely pointing out that in **this** case of execution and torture, Al Aqsa has carried it out. The PA might be involved in some way, but to my understanding Al Aqsa has taken responsibility. Further more, I am aware of the PA’s regime, and have expressed no desire to whitewash any of their actions. Claiming that I need to “admit” to their flaws is a little presumptuous. You may now carry on to the regularly scheduled **december** baiting [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/51 "2002-08-26T13:25:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by reprise \* > It seems that even **december** himself isn’t prepared to come in here and defend those viewpoints. He’s off looking for another stick with which to poke the bear. ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/52 "2002-08-26T14:04:44Z")
BTW **Gobear** I do not believe that “Israelis are evil Zionist oppressors” However, I do hold to the fact that the Israeli government is very ethically repugnant and highly oppressive. And I hope when you said “If we are asking December to admit the flaws of his side, you need to do the same.” you are not implying that I am a “December” for the Palestinian side. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/53 "2002-08-26T14:15:41Z")
I thought he was warned about this? **december** , you sick fuck, I’m only going to say this once, so get this through your thick bony little skull: Just because some of us abhor the extremist and inhuman tactics of Sharon and his ilk, does NOT mean that we support Palestine unconditionally? GOT THAT? I have had it with your baiting, and I’m tired of you playing this card. You are no better than Joseph fucking McCarthy when it comes to this subject. Have you no sense of decency? You are insulting, you are trolling, and you are simply crying wolf yet again. What will it take to get you to stop this? If you’re looking for some of us to admit we hate Israel unreasonably, and that we support Palestinian extremists attempts to wipe it off the map, you’re pissing up the wrong fucking tree. I believe that you, personally, are NOT a genuine asshole, as you ARE able to be civil on occassion. That being said, for some reason, you have a real hardon for this topic, and you’re going to end up blowing your wad of credibility real soon. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/54 "2002-08-26T14:22:11Z")
So **december** posts an unquestionably true story of a horrible atrocity committed by the PA. 90% of the posts in response consist of abuse against, not the perpetrators, but the one who mentions it. Why is it so vital that this be hushed up? Evidence of alleged Israeli atrocities is accepted at face value and trumpeted. Evidence of the same against the Palestinians is not. Are all of you really saying that things like this should have **no** place in the discussions around the moral superiority of one side or the other? Or is posting “F\*\*k you” at selected SDMB members a necessary part of your day? Omitting my usual farewell, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/55 "2002-08-26T14:23:32Z")
I thought he was warned about this? **december** , you sick fuck, I’m only going to say this once, so get this through your thick bony little skull: Just because some of us abhor the extremist and inhuman tactics of Sharon and his ilk, does NOT mean that we support Palestine unconditionally? GOT THAT? I have had it with your baiting, and I’m tired of you playing this card. You are no better than Joseph fucking McCarthy when it comes to this subject. Have you no sense of decency? You are insulting, you are trolling, and you are simply crying wolf yet again. What will it take to get you to stop this? If you’re looking for some of us to admit we hate Israel unreasonably, and that we support Palestinian extremists attempts to wipe it off the map, you’re pissing up the wrong fucking tree. I believe that you, personally, are NOT a genuine asshole, as you ARE able to be civil on occassion. That being said, for some reason, you have a real hardon for this topic, and you’re going to end up blowing your wad of credibility real soon. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/56 "2002-08-26T14:25:07Z")
[minor hijack] Sparc, honey, take a deep breath and back away from the thread, slowly, slooowwwwllyy… That’s better. Get some distance, dude–every time you talk to December I can see flames coming out your ears all the way over here. And it’s not good for the monitor, I can tell you that. 😃 i do seem to have the impression that you keep saying “i’m not going to waste my time on him anymore” and then there you are again, with the three-alarm-fire impression 🙂 [end of minor hijack] What **I** think is perfectly fascinating, now that it’s 9 a.m. the following morning, is that the story has hit the mainstream media, and that most news outlets, like the Boston _Globe_ and the Fresno _Bee_ and the Atlanta _Journal-Constitution_ are just going with the Mohammed Daraghmeh-authored AP story, but the “Boy tortured into implicating his mother falsely!” headlines have been dropped from the Washington _Post’s_ coverage. I was fast-forwarding through it, looking for the “torture scene”, and there it was, wayyy, wayyy down there, almost at the end. Washington _Post_: [Palestinian Group Executes Woman Alleged Collaborator Is Killed for Helping Israelis Track Militant](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60893-2002Aug25.html). > [@](#): > > JERUSALEM, Aug. 25 – A Palestinian militant group executed a Palestinian woman accused of spying for Israel, then dumped her bullet-pocked corpse in a public square in the West Bank city of Tulkarm, officials said today. > > Ikhlas Khouli, 35, is believed to be the first woman killed for collaborating with Israeli security services during the 23-month uprising against Israeli occupation, Palestinian officials said… > > \< big big snip \> > > …The Associated Press reported that Khouli’s son, Bakir Khouli, said he had been tortured by the militants who abducted him and his mother. > > “They accused me of helping Israeli intelligence,” he told the AP. “When they started beating me with this wire, I confessed and invented a story.” > > It is unclear when he was released. So–I’m sorry but I lose track of all the conspiracy theories–which way is the anti-Israel-liberal-media bias running, this time? Or is it the pro-Israel-liberal-media bias? Sorry, I have trouble keeping them straight. 😃 And upon Preview: Ditto what I said to Sparc, to **Guin**. Chill, people. It’s only thunder… ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/57 "2002-08-26T14:27:49Z")
**Shodan** w/a/d/r , the problem isn’t “is this story true” nor is the issue “Is this story an example of horrible behavior by certain Palestinian factions”. However, the OP holds this story out as an example of _Palestinian_ wrongdoing, and the strawman to end all strawmen of “see, they’re doing awful things, why aren’t you all up in arms about this?” The OP has (I’m sure you realize) an excellent history of posting such things along with an absolutely mindboggling ability to only see one side of the issue. As the posters following have continued to point out, suggesting that Sharon & the Israelis aren’t perfect does **not** indicate a belief that certain factions w/in the Palestinian population have done no wrong. As I pointed out in the thread about the A-Q poisoning a dog. Did I need a further example to prove the maxim “Bad guys do bad things”? nope. Does it prove anything else? nope. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/58 "2002-08-26T14:31:17Z")
> [@](#): > > And I hope when you said “If we are asking December to admit the flaws of his side, you need to do the same.” you are not implying that I am a “December” for the Palestinian side. No, in no way, and I apologize for giving you that impression. Despite our political disagreements, I think we can both firmly agree that **December** occupies his own special dimension where he is The Noble Warrior for Truth fighting the Forces of Evil!!![sup]TM[/sup]. It’s a happy place where opinions become facts simply by wishing, and he need never admit incovenient data that might cause him to think his side is ever less than pure and just. I’d alos like to make the point that a group need not be lovable, or even tolerable, in order to have justice done. I think the Palestinians, by and large, are IMO intransigent and unlikable, but they still deserve fair treatment. Contrary to popular myth, oppression does not make people saintly; if anything, it does the opposite. Palestinians should have their property and lives respected not because they’re nice or because we like their leaders, but because they are people, and all people should be treated justly. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/59 "2002-08-26T14:32:27Z")
Well, **december** , unlike some other posters I don’t feel as though you came to my house and trashed it. Or, that is the impression I get from the reactions. I think, again, you represent a fairly vocal group of folks who are a large minority in the United States. Our foreign policy is very pro-Israel, but when you come in here and express these mainstream views people find it necessary to instantly resort to personal assaults. OTOH, to mention torture without mentioning the Israeli position is a little unfair. [So I thought I would.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,203133,00.html) > [@](#): > > The new ruling stipulates that officers using torture will be exempted only if they can show evidence of an impending threat to civilian lives. This is an exception a good lawyer can drive a truck through. But, I agree, the story you posted is tragic, horrible, and shows the depths that some folks will go to. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/60 "2002-08-26T14:36:39Z")
Before the grammar police tear me a new one, “some people” does **not** mean “all Palestinians.” I think both sides need to take some MDMA, listen to some music, and go to the chill out rooom. Not that I know anything about any of that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565.md?page=4)