# Palestinians torture son; force him to falsely implicate his widowed mother of 7 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2002, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565 "2002-08-26T03:35:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/101 "2002-08-26T21:34:13Z")
It is going to be tought to ever find out about what happened at Sabra and Shatila. [Here is one reason.](http://www.worldpress.org/mideast/0402lebanon.htm) > [@](#): > > Not long after the smoke cleared from the Beirut car bomb that killed former Lebanese Christian warlord Elie Hobeika on Jan. 24, Lebanese and Arab commentators were quick to blame Israel and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for the hit. It was Hobeika and his Israel-backed Lebanese militia who were fingered by an Israeli commission of inquiry for carrying out the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacres in Beirut. With Hobeika apparently poised to testify before a Belgian court about Sharon’s role in the massacre, Hobeika’s assassination raised some eyebrows, to say the least. Any source I cite will be either ‘pro-Arab’ or ‘pro-Israeli.’ Including, I would presume, the one I just cited. I would suggest a Google using “Sabra Sharon.” This is a good starting point. Or, [read this](http://www.mediamonitors.net/drbenalofs1.html) and decide on your own search terms. Strange. I used to do these searches and come up with hundreds of hits. Now, I can only get 20, exactly, no matter what I do. I need some computer knowledge. The article cited in the OP still sickens me. But, since I was asked to find some evidence on Sharon and the Sabra, S©hatila massacres, I guess today I will play the role of ‘Palestinian apologist.’ From the last cited article written by a Dutch doctor who was in Sabra and Shatila in 1982. > [@](#): > > The Israeli journalists Zeev Schiff and Ehud Ya’ari describe how Sharon insisted on sending Phalangist militiamen into the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila (see “Israel’s Lebanon War”). To accomplish this, Sharon had held meetings on September 15th with Elie Hobeika, Fadie Frem and Zahi Bustani (leaders of the militiamen) as well as with Amin and Pierre Gemayel, the political leaders of the Phalangist party. The leaders of the Israeli army, Sharon included, were very well aware of the mood of the Phalangists, shortly after the murder of their leader. Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of the feelings of the Phalangists towards the Palestinians knew what would happen if they were let into the refugee camps. [snip] > > Israeli army commanders Eitan, Drori and Yaron made comments on how obsessed the Phalangists were with revenge, talking about a ‘sea of blood’ and ‘kasach’ (Arabic for ‘slashing’ or ‘cutting’). As they made these observations Ariel Sharon gave the green light for the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila. They did so as dusk fell on the 16th of September. [snip] > > There certainly was coordination between the Israelis and the militiamen. The Israelis were largely in control. It was impossible for them to see exactly what was happening in the narrow alleyways of Sabra and Shatila. But soon after the massacre started, reports came in from individual Israeli soldiers about killings. Not once did the Israeli military command try to respond by putting an end to the slaughter. Groups of civilians, coming out of the camps with white flags, were being sent back. Read the whole article. I think it is absurd to claim that the IDF did _anything_ to prevent the massacres. Quite the opposite. I have done searches on this topic before, even many IDF soldiers - to their credit - have acknowledged the complicity of the soldiers there. Sharon was in charge, he cannot claim he was just following orders. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/102 "2002-08-26T21:41:14Z")
Eesh. I should know better than to read anything started by december while I’m supposed to be working. Your cites of previous threads don’t impress me; there have been plenty of people who have started innocous threads but ended up being banned anyway. The sooner you and your warped view of the world are out of here, the better. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/103 "2002-08-26T23:23:03Z")
**Beagle** – thanks for the cites. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \*It is going to be tough to ever find out about what happened at Sabra and Shatila. No doubt you are correct, particularly twenty years after the fact. However, it should be possible to verify the truth of **gobear’s** specific claim about a commission finding: “An Israeli commission found that Sharon facilitated the massacre of civilians…” Even if the Commission Report isn’t on the web, one would expect to find references to it. Indeed, your cite, Dr. Alofs writes, “The conclusions of the Kahane commission were fatally flawed and Sharon was merely deemed to be indirectly responsible and therefore not fit to be a minister of defense.” Since Alofs was claiming that Sharon is a war criminal and since he referenced the Commission report, it seems likely that he would have mentioned a finding that Sharon “facilitated” the massacre. Unless **gobear** returns to support his allegation, I think we must conclude that he stretched the truth. [whine]Why do I get blasted for making factual criticisms of Arafat, but it’s OK to make unsupported criticisms of Sharon?[/whine] > [@](#): > > Sharon was in charge, he cannot claim he was just following orders. I fully agree. Sharon is guilty. We are only debating the extent of his guilt. I am unimpressed with the theory that Sharon ordered the killing of Elie Hobeika. > [@](#): > > Not long after the smoke cleared from the Beirut car bomb that killed former Lebanese Christian warlord Elie Hobeika on Jan. 24, Lebanese and Arab commentators were quick to blame Israel and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for the hit. This is tin-foil hat territory, in my opinion. It just goes to show that Sharon is fair game for any crackpot accusation. That’s good strategy for his enemies, but there’s less excuse for us to take these unsupported charges seriously. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/104 "2002-08-26T23:35:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Unless gobear returns to support his allegation, I think we must conclude that he stretched the truth. [whine]Why do I get blasted for making factual criticisms of Arafat, but it’s OK to make unsupported criticisms of Sharon?[/whine] Well, I was quoting the Goldschmidt book, but the [Jewish Community Federation of Cleveland](http://www.jecc.org/jcfmeb/jcfmeb19.htm) mentions it. > [@](#): > > In September 1982 Sharon allowed Lebanese Christian Philangists to enter the refugee camps in Sabra and Shatila to search for terrorists. The resulting massacre of the refugees led to a commission finding that Sharon did not do enough to prevent the incident. He was forced to resign as defense minister. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/105 "2002-08-26T23:42:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Unless gobear returns to support his allegation, I think we must conclude that he stretched the truth. [whine]Why do I get blasted for making factual criticisms of Arafat, but it’s OK to make unsupported criticisms of Sharon?[/whine] It’s called the Kahan Commission Report, and it’s easy to find [online.](http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/kahan.html). Hell, I remember it, and I’m 20 years younger than you! > [@](#): > > We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense bears personal responsibility. In our opinion, it is fitting that the Minister of Defense draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office - and if necessary, that the Prime Minister consider whether he should exercise his authority under Section 21-A(a) of the Basic Law: the Government, according to which “the Prime Minister may, after informing the Cabinet of his intention to do so, remove a minister from office.” As I previously noted, I think you are too far gone for there to be any point in debating you. And don’t call me a whiner again, you senile fuck. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/106 "2002-08-26T23:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > [whine]Why do I get blasted for making factual criticisms of Arafat, but it’s OK to make unsupported criticisms of Sharon?[/whine] Because gobear, unlike you, is not a broken record whose “factual criticisms” are routinely shown to be false, misleading, ore woefully incomplete. Any number of SDMB posters, _including_ gobear, have denounced Arafat and various other Palestinian extremists, often in the strongest of terms. But for some strange reason, only one of them gets disembowled every time he brings up the subject. So quit with the attempted martyrdom, already. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/107 "2002-08-27T00:49:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \*And don’t call me a whiner again, you senile fuck. \*\* Actually I called _myself_ a whiner, not you. For Sharon to not do enough to prevent a massacre was a serious misdeed. However, I think we now all agree that the Kahane Commission did NOT make a finding that he _facilitated_ the massacre, which would be even worse. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/108 "2002-08-27T01:45:52Z")
Sharon “was found responsible for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge when he approved the entry of the Phalangists into the camps . . . .” Considering that he _knew_ of the substantial risk of Phalangist killings and approved their entry anyway, he at least acted recklessly and probably acted knowingly (to borrow the American legal standards). Under American law, that would make him guilty of either manslaughter or second degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/109 "2002-08-27T01:53:22Z")
It’s no use. He’s doing it on purpose…just being deliberately obtuse. Enough’s enough. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/110 "2002-08-27T02:07:35Z")
**december** , what will it take? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/111 "2002-08-27T02:12:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\* > > Are there _any_ examples I can offer to keep you from calling me a liar again, or is your mind made up? \*\* Please **Andros** , let’s not make this personal. I apologised to you for that comment 2 years ago and again later if I remember correctly. I also didn’t really mean it, but thought it was appropriate for a pit rant. Like come on, I called you a sour cream puff in the same post. I didn’t realize that pit comments were to be taken as seriously as I now understand. Could you puhleeeeze let it go? Now to those who feel that they have cited atrocities comparable to that in the OP, I must disagree. There is something completely horrible about when a group tortures one of their own children and forces them to kill their own mother. The other incident of a mother encouraging her own son into oblivion was completely horrible. Show me an incident where the Israeli government/army have done similar to one of their own citizens, and I will be convinced. Now the only purpose in this challenge is to respond to the claim that Israeli’s have committed similar atrocities(I hope I have paraphrased correctly) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/112 "2002-08-27T02:28:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Considering that he _knew_ of the substantial risk of Phalangist killings and approved their entry anyway, he at least acted recklessly and probably acted knowingly (to borrow the American legal standards). Under American law, that would make him guilty of either manslaughter or second degree murder. \*\* I will take your word for the legal analysis. Sharon absolutely committed a most serious misdeed. OTOH Arafat called an intifada in which numerous people were killed. Money that he controlled went to terrorist organizations who directly commited the murders. (According to information the Israelis say they found in his Ramallah headquarters.) Under American law, that would make him guilty of first degree murder. Since there were multiple murders in his intifada, he would be eligible for the death penalty in many states, as I understand the law. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/113 "2002-08-27T02:30:10Z")
Nope, not gonna bother (though I wouldn’t be surprised if it has happened). It’s no better or worse, IMO, to commit an atrocity against your own people than it is to commit an atrocity against somebody else’s people. By the way, you’re also factually incorrect. The Al Aqsa assholes did not make the kid kill his own mother, as even a cursrory reading of the story quoted in the OP would reveal; they killed her themselves. Nor did the Al Aqsa assholes torture “one of their own children”; they tortured somebody else’s child. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/114 "2002-08-27T02:31:17Z")
Yeah, december, way to acknowledge the point: They’re _both_ contemptible pieces of shit. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/115 "2002-08-27T02:53:24Z")
**december** , there are those in Al-Qaeda who would claim that they were “provoked” into “retaliation” against the US and that the events of September 11 last year are dwarfed by the “sins” of US. There are undoubtedly people on both sides of the Northern Ireland debate who would claim that they only “respond” to atrocities committed by the other side. There were almost certainly people in Nazi Germany who saw Hitler’s actions as the only appropriate response to perceived “wrongs” committed against the German people. It’s scary how similar to those kinds of viewpoints your arguments are starting to sound. History shows that none of the parties to war are inclined to treat those they believe to be spies or collaborators kindly, but your willingness to accept news reports of atrocities committed by one side of this conflict as “proof” while demanding “objective” evidence of any atrocities alleged to have been committed by the other is mind-boggling. If only the world **was** that black and white. Cliched though it might be, truth is both the first casualty of war and its final hostage. Why is it so hard for you to accept that both sides of this conflict have legitimate grievances and both sides of this conflict have committed terrible acts in pursuit of their claims? By turning the Palestinian/Israeli conflict into some kind of “but they did worse things than we did” oneupmanship game, it is **you** who are trivialising the terrible human cost of this conflict - and you’re doing so without offering any suggestions of how the conflict can be resolved. I’m beginning to wonder whether your quest to prove your viewpoint “right” and that of anyone who isn’t a passionate defender of the pro-Israel stance hasn’t turned your reading of the media into some kind of game where your first thought upon reading these articles is “slamdunk, one for my side”, rather than “oh my fucking God, this is truly horrible, how can we end this?” ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/116 "2002-08-27T03:17:33Z")
Which is worse: The events described in the article Or December reading the article, smiling, and cheerfully skipping over to the SDMB to use it as fodder for another of his threads? ``` Can't the moderators change December's status from Member to PermaTroll ? This is, after all, what December is. He is a troll who never quite breaks the rules. I've never seen him debate. He cites some source or another and then spews hatred. ``` ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/117 "2002-08-27T03:45:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Please Andros, let’s not make this personal. . . .Could you puhleeeeze let it go? Ummm . . . huh? I was talking about _this_ thread. I’m not sure I remember much of anything from two years ago. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/118 "2002-08-27T04:18:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > > By the way, you’re also factually incorrect. The Al Aqsa assholes did not make the kid kill his own mother, as even a cursrory reading of the story quoted in the OP would reveal; they killed her themselves. Yah, I know, like it is factually incorrect to say that Sharon is responsible for the massacres at Sabra and Satila. I guarantee you, that kid will think he killed his mother for the rest of his life. Remember _Sophie’s Choice_ ? With regard to the “own children” comment, we are discussing a Palestinian/Israeli issue, not a personal one. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/119 "2002-08-27T04:23:41Z")
> [@](#): > > With regard to the “own children” comment, we are discussing a Palestinian/Israeli issue, not a personal one. The more well meant comments based on ‘mine’ and ‘yours’ people I witness on this board I become convinced that even the mildest form of nationalism and patriotic pride is a vile curse to humanity that needs to be eradicated like a disease. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/120 "2002-08-27T04:29:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **Do you think that highlighting the abuses of the Palestinian Authority has any relation to the merits of the Palestinian peoples’ grievances against Israel.** Do you think that highlighting the murders on 9/11 has any relation to the merits of the terrorists’ grievances against America? Because I seem to recall you arguing otherwise, i.e., that the terrorist attacks were unmerited. So what is it? Al-Queda, unjustified. Al Aska, justified? understanderable? caused by the victims? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565.md?page=7)