# Palestinians torture son; force him to falsely implicate his widowed mother of 7

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [August 26, 2002, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565 "2002-08-26T03:35:12Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 7

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**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/121 "2002-08-27T04:34:18Z")

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With apologies to Cranky, for her objections to correction posts, this is too funny. Understanderable? I previewed even, really. 🙂

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**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/122 "2002-08-27T04:41:20Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by reprise \*…your willingness to accept news reports of atrocities committed by one side of this conflict as “proof” while demanding “objective” evidence of any atrocities alleged to have been committed by the other is mind-boggling.

The atrocity in this OP was reported by the Palestinian boy who was tortured, not by Israelis.

> [@](#):
>
> If only the world **was** that black and white…
> 
> Why is it so hard for you to accept that both sides of this conflict have legitimate grievances and both sides of this conflict have committed terrible acts in pursuit of their claims?

I’m glad you asked this question. Others have made a similar point. I do not take that POV because I disagree with it. I believe the moral behavior of the Israelis has been far superior to the moral behavior of the Palestinians. I’ve made the argument by providing a number of specific examples.

Many of you disagree with me on this point. That’s OK with me; you might even be right. But, what bugs me is those who respond as if I had said something offensive or improper. **Minty green** claimed that the problem was inaccuracies, but I don’t buy that. My examples were supported by cites. If I were merely posting erronious stuff, board members would simply post cites correcting me. So, why is this such an emotional matter for some of you?

Maybe my posts interfere with a world view, which I imagine going something like this: \* I’m a tolerant, moral person. A symbol of my goodness is my ability to see the flaws on both sides of the Israel/Palestinian conflict, but to regard the two sides as morally equal.\* Under this hypothesis, a demonstration of unequal morality would attack a symbol of _your_ tolerant goodness.

Or, maybe Palestinians are regarded as morally preferred to Israelis, because they’re poorer, less powerful, darker skinned, not traditonally western, or some other reason. However, I do not think anyone on this board is anti-Semitic.

Well, maybe my two theories are all baloney. They’re just something I made up. Still, the question continues to puzzle me.

> [@](#):
>
> I’m beginning to wonder whether your quest to prove your viewpoint “right” and that of anyone who isn’t a passionate defender of the pro-Israel stance hasn’t turned your reading of the media into some kind of game where your first thought upon reading these articles is “slamdunk, one for my side”, rather than “oh my fucking God, this is truly horrible, how can we end this?”

There’s some truth in the first half, anyhow. Yes, I admit thinking these examples are a point for my side, but I am also truly horrified. If you want to see a picture of the tortured boy’s back and of his mother when she was alive, [www.instapundit.com](http://www.instapundit.com) has links. (You can hit _Control f_ to Find, and enter “murder” to be taken down to the links.)

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**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/123 "2002-08-27T05:12:08Z")

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I have to put an opinion in here.

I do not agree with December on many things. But his positions are generally representative of the opinions of a fairly wide swath of Americans. He defends them, does not abandon threads, attempts to represent his position to the best of his ability. At no time have I had the sense that December is playing a game, or intentionally trying to deceive people or distort a position for his amusement.

Banning him from this board simply because his opinions are _unpopular_, would be outrageous, and not in keeping with what I consider to be the principles of the _Straight Dope_. We put up with endless discussions of silly things. I think we’re into about our 50th moon landing hoax thread, herbal medicine cure thread, etc. So December has a particular fixation with his ideology and likes to debate it. He is always pleasant, never gets abusive (amazingly so, considering some of the abuse he takes), and in general plays by the rules.

And this thread is out of control, and was from about the third or fourth message. December’s post was little different than the thousands of posts you can find in the archives where someone posts about the abuses of an individual or individuals in a group in order to discredit it. Yet December’s is somehow deserving of spittle-flying hatred? Some of you guys need to take a deep breath and regain your perspective.

My .02

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**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/124 "2002-08-27T05:33:29Z")

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**december** , do you know which quote from Yitzhak Shamir those who would have you believe that Israel has no legitimate grievances drag out and plaster all over their hateful websites? It’s this one :-

_“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war… We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today…”_

They - too - publish photographs which document the “atrocities of war”. They publish those photographs with the intention of arousing hatred towards the Jewish people and the State of Israel; and they very often succeed.

One tragedy of this conflict is that whoever publishes the most heart-wrenching stories - and in particular the most heart-wrenching photos - gets their viewpoint and their message a bit more exposure for the moment and a bit more sympathy than the other side. One reason I **won’t** link to such photos is because while they record actual incidents, they are often presented in a context which does nothing to foster the desire for peace in the Middle East and they are often presented by zealots whose primary agenda is inspiring hatred. Nonetheless, those photos exist and are easy to find if you wish to search for them. (warning to other posters - don’t search unless you have a very strong stomach; on some sites the images are simply THERE, without any opportunity for you to avoid them).

This conflict has gone on for far too long and been far too barbaric for either side to claim any kind of moral superiority, and we in the West far too often get caught up in the “who’s less morally wrong” game which both sides play when we should be saying “a pox on both your houses until you stop this insanity”.

There is no real hope for peace in the region until **both** sides stop the barbarism, and however sympathetic we might be to the grievances of either side we cannot (and I contend should not) advance their legitimate claims until they cease trying to achieve those aims by such reprehensible means.

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**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/125 "2002-08-27T06:52:29Z")

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You know there once was a guy by the name of Winston Spencer Churchill. In the years prior to WWII he ranted against the tide of public opinion generally anti French and pro German. He continually urged Baldwin and the Chamberlain to take a stronger stand against Hitler in order to avert a war. He was a pain in the ass to his own party, many who wanted to ban him or should I say kick him out of the Conservative Party.

> [@](#):
>
> - [http://www.winstonchurchill.org/actp1939a.htm](http://www.winstonchurchill.org/actp1939a.htm) \*  
> Churchill’s role as the tribune for British vigilance against German intentions did not go unnoticed bv the German leader. In a public speech Hitler charged that Churchill and his followers knew very, little about Central Europe. Hitler also noted that while Churchill represented but a fraction of British votes, he represented the whole German people. Churchill was also under attack from within Parliament and his own part)@. Writing Clementine about a gift from a supporter, he commented: "I wish some of these dirty Tory hacks, who would like to drive me out of the Party, could see this trophy - " But the political opposition to him within Partianxnt was unabated. The Chamberlain group despised him and the opponents of Munich who followed Eden were afraid to get too close.

> [@](#):
>
> - [http://www.winstonchurchill.org/actp1938.htm](http://www.winstonchurchill.org/actp1938.htm) \*  
> Distressed by proGerman and anti-French propaganda in Britain, he flew to France to advocate an Anglo-French alliance. When he was received with full honours by the French, the Cabinet let it be known that he spoke only for himself and not the Government.

I do not question the integrity of **December’s** motives for reporting this outrage to us. In fact, I believe we do a great disservice to the Palestinian people by ignoring the atrocities and equating their proactive hate and destruction to the Israeli response strategem. This only justifies their terror campaign in their own eyes, and prolongs the crisis resulting in more and more death on both sides. I was utterly appalled by the group of westerners who snuck into Arafat’s compound when he was under seige, and thereby lending support to him. I can’t imagine how many more people died or will die with this moral support. And by the way, by using the term Palestinians I do not mean all Palestinians.

**December** , my hat goes off to you sir. The ridicule you put up with, the anger and hatred, the spit and the shit would knock down a lesser man like me maybe. I know you have the best interests of both Palestinians and Israelis at heart despite the ridiculous charges of infantile motives hurled at you.

> [@](#):
>
> - first link\*  
> The Chamberlain group despised him and the opponents of Munich who followed Eden were afraid to get too close.

Take comfort that there are many here who agree with you in this matter, but fear the response that any support for you will generate.

Oh, somewhat ironically, Sir Winston Churchill was a staunch supporter of a Jewish state.

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**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/126 "2002-08-27T07:31:25Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by grienspace \*  
> I know you have the best interests of both Palestinians and Israelis at heart despite the ridiculous charges of infantile motives hurled at you.

You really think so, **grienspace**? I’m not so sure.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by december \*
> 
> \<\<At whom do you intend to aim this war? Are you planning to simply kill all the Palestinains?\>\>
> 
> Yes, I think Israel would be well-advised to declare war on the Palestinians and drive them out of some of their current terrotory. Israel needs a contiguous, defensible area.

From here:  
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128512](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128512)

Perhaps that comment is misrepresentative of his position. Maybe it is misleading. I find it hard to be sure because he has a tendency to shift the debate at times from what he says are his actual views vs. his conjectural views. But it does make me suspicious that he regards the welfare of the Palestinian people as a whole ( never mind their fucked up leadership ) as distinctly second-place, if even that.

I don’t think he is a ( deliberate, or at least obligate ) troll. I don’t think he should be banned.

But I do find his reasoning and reading comprehension suspect. And I do find some of his stated positions disturbing.

> [@](#):
>
> In fact, I believe we do a great disservice to the Palestinian people by ignoring the atrocities…

Again, and for the thousandth time, I don’t think very many people do.

> [@](#):
>
> …and equating their proactive hate and destruction to the Israeli response strategem.

Sorry, but they can be equated ( shown as necessarily or properly associated ), even if they are not equivalent ( equal in force or amount ). One sides’ worse actions do not make your bad ones any more palatable.

I consider myself to be mildly pro-Israeli if anything, but to willfully ignore that both sides have legitimate grievances, even if you think one side has **many more** legitimate grievances, is to be willfully blind.

- Tamerlane

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**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/127 "2002-08-27T11:54:48Z")

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**Grienspace…**

You just compared december to Churchill?¿? One of the greatest men in the history of mankind?¿?

You compared december who spews so much venom about the UN to it’s prime founder?¿?

Your interpretation of the events leading up to WWII as in context with this thread is gross and utterly misrepresenting – there are even stronger words that come to mind.

Churchill never - read _never_ - spewed any hateful statements about the Germans during the years leading up to the war (for that matter he stayed pretty clear of bigotry even during the war) . He reserved his judgment for Germanies leaders and Hitler in particular. I could give you volumes of examples. In order to keep this short I will instead refer you to his 8 volume biography by Martin Gilbert – if that’s too unwieldy for you try the 800 or so page abridged version which still covers the 1930s more or less week by week.

I’ll give you a quote from his famous ‘Iron Curtain’ speech in 1946 after the war that somewhat illustrate his position:

> [@](#):
>
> Last time I saw it all coming and I cried aloud to my own fellow countrymen and to the world, but no one paid any attention. Up till the year 1933 or even 1935, Germany might have been saved from the awful fate which has overtaken her and we might all have been spared the miseries Hitler let loose upon mankind.

I kindly ask you… no, I _demand_ you to retract your comparison in the interest of accuracy and the respect for the readership. If not please show me cases of any hateful statements that Churchill made about the Germans in general during the years before the war.

Nobody disagrees here about Al Aqsa we disagree about equating all Palestinians with Al Aqsa.

Churchill?¿? For fucks sake that’s like some kind of reversed Godwin!!!

Sparc

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**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/128 "2002-08-27T12:11:31Z")

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**grienspace** , you’re wrong. Dead wrong. Not only does **december** not “have the best interests of both Palestinians and Israelis at heart despite the ridiculous charges of infantile motives hurled at [him]” by inference and interpretation of his posts and his continual wish to highlight every single Palestinian atrocity while ignoring Israeli wrongdoings, but he’s [_actually said he doesn’t_](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=130904&perpage=50&pagenumber=2). On several occasions. Your defence is unwarranted.

> [@](#):
>
> **You just compared december to Churchill?¿? One of the greatest men in the history of mankind?¿?**

**Sparc** , I for one don’t think **december** is one of the greatest men in the history of mankind. Second greatest maybe. 😉

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**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/129 "2002-08-27T12:20:59Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by grienspace \*  
> Yah, I know, like it is factually incorrect to say that Sharon is responsible for the massacres at Sabra and Satila.

Read the fucking report, grienspace. Sez right there, in the first paragraph: “Mr. Sharon **was found responsible** for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge when he approved the entry of the Phalangists into the camps as well as not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed.” You can argue the extent of his responsibility, but it’s ahistorical to flatly claim that the was not responsible.

Good god, how did I end up taking the anti-Israeli position? Oh yeah, that’s right–the conflict is _not_ the forces of good versus the forces of evil.

And I don’t want december banned either. How 'bout just a warning to stop spamming the boards with news stories and editorials?

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**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/130 "2002-08-27T12:42:54Z")

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People are being pretty nice about not wanting **december** banned. But he’s corrosive to discussion on this and other topics. The faults in his “spin chiropractor” style of posting have been repeatedly pointed out to him by people who hold positions he purports to support, by opponents, by neutrals and by moderators. It’s pretty plain he knows what he’s doing and he shows few signs of stopping.

I want to be able to read debates about the Middle East and the UN on these boards. I want to read the views of people with whom I disagree, but who act as opponents not enemies. And at the moment **december** is interfering with that. So yes, I’d like him to stop his current practices. And if he won’t, I’d like to see him stopped (not, of course that banning’s a matter of my or other members’ opinions). We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance here, not coddling it. I’ve had enough of his shit.

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**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/131 "2002-08-27T13:10:37Z")

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Yep, **hawthorne** - we’re almost at the bottom of page three (here) and I don’t think there’s a single post addressing the meaningless and provocative OP itself…just another complete waste of everyone’s time and effort.

All we’re doing is shouting down ingrained and seemingly pathological ignorance. misrepresentation and falsehood from within (‘within’ being a poster with 3,200 posts).

Nor do I have an awful lot of time for his version of the **Wildest Bill** quick step (a step back out of contrition, a side step with a straw man and a little half step forward with a hijack of his own thread).

How many times has this happened…?

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**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/132 "2002-08-27T13:51:40Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \*  
> **Banning him from this board simply because his opinions are _unpopular_, would be outrageous, and not in keeping with what I consider to be the principles of the _Straight Dope_. We put up with endless discussions of silly things.**

We’re also about fighting ignorace and december is a perfect example of why “it’s taking longer than we thought.” \*\*

> [@](#):
>
> So December has a particular fixation with his ideology and likes to debate it. He is always pleasant, never gets abusive (amazingly so, considering some of the abuse he takes), and in general plays by the rules.\*\*

There’s at least one Mod who will disagree with you, or did you miss **Coldfire** ’s posts in this thread?\*\*

> [@](#):
>
> December’s post was little different than the thousands of posts you can find in the archives where someone posts about the abuses of an individual or individuals in a group in order to discredit it. Yet December’s is somehow deserving of spittle-flying hatred?\*\*

Please see **London** ’s and **hawthorne** ’s preceding posts.

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**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/133 "2002-08-27T13:56:08Z")

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and the first thing I find is this:

> [@](#):
>
> ## **gobear** A Palestinian mother weeps for her dead son just as much as an Israeli mother weeps for hers.
> 
> **december** You are so right, gobear.
> 
> One reason I found the article so repulsive is that the author didn’t seem to express sympathy to any of the individuals affected – Palestinian or Israeli. What I found in the article was her admiration for her herself. YMMV

I think december admitted ^ that Sharon is responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacres also.

> [@](#):
>
> I fully agree. Sharon is guilty. We are only debating the extent of his guilt.

I’ll admit that december is obstinate and infuriating. But rude, crazy, or not representative of a fairly common point of view – no way.

I’ve addressed the article in the OP, albeit briefly, twice. Now for #3, it makes me sick. If I lived in Israel or Gaza, I would get the hell out if it took me every last dime I had. At one time the Zionists were considering Argentina. Hmmmm. Nice weather, occasional rain, oil, ah…

[sub]December, please, for your sake, stop hypothesizing why people hold the views they do. Just agree to disagree and make your case. Psychoanalysis of your opponent is bad form in a debate.[/sub]

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**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/134 "2002-08-27T14:19:05Z")

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I’ve cried out for december’s banning before. I subsequently retracted and apologized. Meanwhile I have grown somewhat fond of him, the same way one grows found of a festering sore after a while as the pain becomes familiar and you can’t stop picking at it.

That being said this is getting ridiculous. Someone please show me how his behavior isn’t trolling so that I can just learn to live with it and stop questioning the sanity of this place.

Sparc

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**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/135 "2002-08-27T14:33:44Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \*  
> **Yep, hawthorne - we’re almost at the bottom of page three (here) and I don’t think there’s a single post addressing the meaningless and provocative OP itself…just another complete waste of everyone’s time and effort.**

I’ll try. What’s troubling about this is not that it occured, although that’s horrific enough, but that it was carried out by one of the al-Asqua Martyr’s Brigades. This is troubling because the Martyr’s Brigades have direct links to Fatah and Arafat., and the PLA helps fund the Brigades, hiring Brigade members as the PLA security force. I don’t think Arafat ordered this, but the fact that he allows it happen in an organization he funds, has nominal control over, and uses as a police force is troubling and says a lot of bad things about the rule of law in the PLA.

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**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/136 "2002-08-27T14:39:49Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \*  
> **Nor do I have an awful lot of time for his version of the Wildest Bill quick step (a step back out of contrition, a side step with a straw man and a little half step forward with a hijack of his own thread).**

the theory that **december** is Wildest Bill version 2.3 is **mine**. 😃

Yes, he’s polite. But I also believe he’s admitted to writing his OP’s in a deliberatly exaggerated manner to provoke others.

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**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/137 "2002-08-27T15:17:18Z")

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\<\<All we’re doing is shouting down ingrained and seemingly pathological ignorance. misrepresentation and falsehood from within\>\>

The OP is true. It’s based on a widely-reported news story. By posting facts that some might prefer not to know about, I am the one fighting ignorance.

\<\<the meaningless and provocative OP \>\>

It’s far from meaningless. Even if it were an isolated atrocity, it would be just as meaningful as, say, the horrible case reported last week, in which a young man raped an infant.

However, this is not an isolated case. It’s official al Aksa policy. And, al Aksa is a part of Fatah, which is (to some degree) under the control of Arafat – an important middle east leader.

\<\<Meanwhile I have grown somewhat fond of him\>\>

Thank you, **Sparc**. I have grown rather fond of you, too. I always appreciate your sincerity, although we disagree more often than we agree.

\<\<Someone please show me how his behavior isn’t trolling\>\>

As I understand its meaning, “trolling” involves the use of insincere, provocative posts. Many of my posts are provocative, but they represent my sincere beliefs and feelings, so they do not constitute trolling.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/138 "2002-08-27T16:01:10Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> The OP is true. It’s based on a widely-reported news story. By posting facts that some might prefer not to know about, I am the one fighting ignorance.

Who here has explicitly said that the events in the OP were NOT an atrocity?

> [@](#):
>
> As I understand its meaning, “trolling” involves the use of insincere, provocative posts.

They are insincere as you deliberately warp the facts to suit your own little agenda.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/139 "2002-08-27T16:15:58Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> _december_  
> Many of my posts are provocative, but they represent my sincere beliefs and feelings, so they do not constitute trolling.

This is _exactly_ my problem with you. I accept that you feel very strongly about the Middle East. I greatly sympathise with your feeling that the situation in which Israel finds herself is not sufficiently appreciated. But the way to support your position is with _facts_ and _argument_ whereas you attempt to support your position with _distortions_ and _slurs_. Your recent posts here suggest (to me at least) that _you understand this very well_ but you just don’t care.

The problem is **not** that you are insincere in your _beliefs_, but in your _posts_. On this Board, if you consistently post things dishonestly or disingenuously _even in an attempt to advance an honestly-held, important or righteous belief_, people are going to think you’re a jerk. And they’d be right.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians-torture-son-force-him-to-falsely-implicate-his-widowed-mother-of-7/125565/140 "2002-08-27T17:00:49Z")

</div>

**grienspace** , have you lost all touch with reality?

**december** =SIR WINSTON BLOODY CHURCHILL???

What the fuck are you smoking?

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