# Palestinians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2002, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027 "2002-04-22T19:18:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/61 "2002-04-24T00:59:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Olentzero Now, a quick calculation shows that it would take 7 years for 500,000 children to die at the rate of 200 a day. Which puts us somewhere around 1997_ At this very moment, Saddam Hussein has cut his oil exports in half to punish the US. By your logic, **Olentzero** , Saddam has chosen to starve many of his own children. Perhaps you would calculate for us how many Iraqi children Saddam is murdering each day by this action. Or, is it only a problem when the US or Israel does it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/62 "2002-04-24T02:23:17Z")
Regarding the OP, **sailor** I think your attitude is a bit naive. Forgeting everything we don’t know right now, you may not like the people who did that, I don’t, but a traitor is a traitor. If the men who died were betraying whatever faction the others were fighting for, it is the logic of war and it works the same way in the US army for example. Like I said, it is a bit naive to classify the Palestinians as barbaric because you witnessed an execution on TV, as tragic as that may be. Of course someone will say they deserved a fair trial (as every man does). Undoubtedly but assassinations are not exclusive to the palestinians and their situation is not an easy one. It may seem I am defending their actions but far from it, not having seen those images I just find your logic naive. War isn’t pretty. Besides it bothers me to see that many others jump on that bandwagon, such as calling Palestinians uncivilized. It is a consequence of most Americans desire to justify the continued support the USA grants to Israel. > [@](#): > > No. Arguing, insulting, shouting, backstabbing and libeling, yes. But no shooting. All political assasinations in Israeli history - both of them - were carried out by individuals unasociated with any group. I was under the impression Peres was assassinated by a radical Jewish settlers group, was the muderer working alone? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/63 "2002-04-24T02:51:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I was under the impression Peres was assassinated by a radical Jewish settlers group, was the muderer working alone? It was Yitzhak Rabin, not Shimon Peres, but otherwise that’s correct. He was killed by Yigal Amir, a 24-year old student who shot him because he wanted "“to give our country to the Arabs.” ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/64 "2002-04-24T02:52:50Z")
Sorry, that’s from [http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9511/rabin/funeral/wrap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9511/rabin/funeral/wrap/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/65 "2002-04-24T14:43:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*I suggested that since you brought the matter up, it’s up to you to demonstrate that the pictures prove your point. You have not done so. \*\* And when you were asked to back up a statement you made regarding falsehoods and distortions on that site, you immediately refused to do so. Where does that leave us? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > \*\*At this very moment, Saddam Hussein has cut his oil exports in half to punish the US. By your logic, Olentzero, Saddam has chosen to starve many of his own children. Perhaps you would calculate for us how many Iraqi children Saddam is murdering each day by this action. > > Or, is it only a problem when the US or Israel does it?\*\* Allow me to post excerpts from the conclusions of the WHO report I linked to earlier: > [@](#): > > The six-week war in 1991 resulted in the large scale destruction of military and civilian infrastructures alike. > > The sanctions imposed on Iraq and related circumstances have prevented the country from repairing all of its damaged or destroyed infrastructure, and whenever attempts have been made, these have been incomplete. > > Iraq is an oil-rich country, which prior to the 1991 war was almost totally dependant on the import of two vital requirements for a healthy life–food and medicine. **More than 70% of food requirements of Iraq, prior to 1991, were imported** and the bulk consisted of staple cereals, legumes, cooking oils, sugar and tea, which are the major items in the daily diet of the average Iraqi citizen. **Financial constraints as a result of the sanctions have prevented the necessary import of food and medicine.** > > Other items in the daily diet, especially animal products such as dairy products, chicken and beef, in which the country was almost self-sufficient, are now being sold on the open market at “sky-rocketing” prices, which only those at the highest income level can afford. > > The vast majority of the country’s population has been on a semi-starvation diet for years. > > The reduction in the import of medicines, owing to a lack of financial resources, as well as a lack of minimum health care facilities, insecticides, pharmaceutical and other related equipment and appliances, have crippled the health care services, which in pre-war years were of a high quality. The war and the sanctions did a lot more damage than any reducution in oil imports could possibly do. **Daoloth** - the United States has a permanent seat on the Security Council and is years behind in its dues to the UN. If the UN were powerful enough by itself to impose sanctions on Iraq, do you not think it would be powerful enough to remove the US from its seat until it was caught up in dues? The UN is a fig leaf for the sanctions to make it look like there’s international support for them. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/66 "2002-04-24T15:25:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > **Let’s see…That ummah website has graphics of people burning American and Israeli flags, choppy grammar, calls its failures due to Zionist pressure, and has a bad layout. This does not credible journalism make.** Wow, sorry we can’t all be Edward R. Murrow from Day One. Since when does absence of professional journalistic accreditation preclude someone from telling the truth? None of your objections have anything actually to do with journalism. Two are stylistic, and two deal more with the expression of opinions you disagree with. If it can be proven that the pictures are either fakes or misrepresented (for example, victims of a car accident in Topeka where someone decided to stick a couple of Arabic cards in the photo), then _that_ is bad journalism. Not bad grammar and dissenting opinions. > [@](#): > > \*\*Furthermore, the pictures are curio…There’s nothing to prove they’re from Jenin. Reporters haven’t been allowed in Jenin and the elecrticity is off there. How could they have gotten so many clear photos out of there and online? \*\* What, professional reporters and journalists are the only ones in the world with cameras? Is it not entirely possible that film and a camera were somehow brought into Jenin under cover and then smuggled out again? Is the entire country of Israel without an Internet connection? ---
**Author:** ![byomtoob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@byomtoob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/byomtoob)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/67 "2002-04-24T15:34:44Z")
I think what we’re all forgetting here, is that because of the oppressive nature of the Israeli occupation, killing each other in the streets is the only way that Palestinians have to fight back. It highlights the desperation of their situation. This is especially true given that the suicide bombing infrastructure (which was previously the only available method of fighting back) has been destroyed by the vicious occupiers. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/68 "2002-04-24T15:45:01Z")
I’m off to Florida until Sunday to visit some of **Valkyrie** ’s family. If this thread is still active when I get back we can continue. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/69 "2002-04-24T16:19:42Z")
> [@](#): > > And when you were asked to back up a statement you made regarding falsehoods and distortions on that site, you immediately refused to do so. Where does that leave us? It leaves me saying “Neener-neener, I asked you first.” :rolleyes: :shrug: Whatever. It’s clear your mind is as made up as those with whom you disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Jdeforrest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/49beb7/32.png) [@Jdeforrest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jdeforrest)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/70 "2002-04-24T17:50:50Z")
Okay, first of all I just want to announce my displeasure at having to wade through all these WHO documents, but in the name of truth I’ve done so. In the WHO report you mentioned - [The Health Condition of the Population of Iraq Since the Gulf Crisis](http://www.who.int/disasters/repo/6680.pdf) (this was published by the Iraqi government, so there is an argument for bias) It posted these numbers - 1990 - 8903 - 24.3/day - 257 per 100k live births 1991 - 27473 - 75.2/day - 884 per 100k live births 1992 - 46933 - 128.5/day - 1460 per 100k live births 1993 - 49762 - 136.3/day - 1495 per 100k live births 1994 - 52905 - 144.9/day - 1536 per 100k live births It does not include data past this point - but doing some more math, adding 8%/year (which is liberal looking at the figures) we reach 200/day around 1998 which is when you judge the pictures to be done. 200/day is what the site states. Not 100/day as you’ve said earlier. So first how did they get this data from this report without making ludicrous assumptions like I just did. Second - If you look at this report - [Results of the 1999 Iraq Child and Maternal Mortuality Survey](http://www.unicef.org/reseval/iraqr.htm) done by unicef (which is much more reliable in my opinion) they list these figures 1990 - 50/per 100k live births 1995 - 117/per 100k live births 1998 - 125/per 100k live births These are significantly different from the numbers the Iraqi government posted. According to these, mortuality went up about 150%, according to Iraq, mortuality went up 600% or more. Anyway, none of the numbers match with the sites 200/day figure. So in my opinion the site still isn’t credible. It appears to provide facts but doesn’t back them up with data. So now can we get off the Iraq discussion and back on Palestinian discussion? Do you really feel that the Palestinians can attack Israel militarily without Israel assuming a military posture back? Blowing up civilians is simply wrong. There is nothing that can be done to justify it. Until they even look for alternative means of resistance I condemn their actions and cannot agree with anything they stand for. ---
**Author:** ![MHand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@MHand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHand)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/71 "2002-04-24T18:16:12Z")
It should be noted that one of the tactics used by the Palestinian Terrorists in Jenin was to lure Israeli soldiers into a building with women and children pretending to surrender, and then blow-up the building over the soldiers. 13 Israeli soldiers were killed in such an attack and in the ensuing rescue mission. Surely, some of the more gruesome Palestinian deaths were caused by their own fighters destroying buildings over the decoy’s. Also, note that the same sight that links to these pictures of the so-called Israeli massacre, also takes a stand against the US war on Japan in WWII, calling out attacks on the Japanese mainland “massacres”. How many people would agree with that? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/72 "2002-04-24T18:25:40Z")
So this is what it boils down to: The Big Lie - Israel is and always had been the oppressor. !!! (And of course other falsehoods that just get repeated until people start accepting them) Truth - Jews in the area that they called Palestine were _systematically_ oppressed and subjected to massacres in the years before 1948. (There _was_ one alleged massacre by Israelis as the War broke out but the truth of that is quite disputed. It depends on whose history you believe.) The calls by the Mufti of Jerusulam to kill the Jews are not in doubt. The fact that multiple Arab countries attacked a tiny country set up by the UN … and lost … is not in doubt. Post-1967 you can debate. How kind and generous has the Israeli government been to the peoples under their occupying jurisdiction. On the one hand, they have, on occassion, been very unfair compared to the standards of rights given to their own citizens or by the standards of Western counties. OTOH, they have done no worse than most Arab countries have done in treating their own citizens. That is not an excuse for poor treatment but is an accurate observation. And it is a reason that Arab governments have for prolonging attention on Israel … it distracts from their own records. Anything by the Palestinians is justified!!! Well, okay then. We know where you stand. It is Israel’s fault that the Palestinians are protesting by killing each other in the streets, because those rude Israelis destroyed the suicide bombing infrastructure??? Oh boy. No need to comment here. And let’s be clear with general principles. It is the responsibilty of the citer to be able to prove the reliability of information citied to other readers’ satisfactions, not the other way around. I like Barak’s plan: unilateral partial pull-out and big big walls. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027/73 "2002-04-24T20:35:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > \*\* > > Wow, sorry we can’t all be Edward R. Murrow from Day One. Since when does absence of professional journalistic accreditation preclude someone from telling the truth? None of your objections have anything actually to do with journalism. Two are stylistic, and two deal more with the expression of opinions you disagree with. If it can be proven that the pictures are either fakes or misrepresented (for example, victims of a car accident in Topeka where someone decided to stick a couple of Arabic cards in the photo), then _that_ is bad journalism. Not bad grammar and dissenting opinions. > \*\* Most scholars don’t consider non-objective news services valid. Thus, since Ummah web or whatever is non-objective, its arguments are thus nullified for the purpose of the argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palestinians/105027.md?page=3)