# Palin is a collectivist socialist. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2008, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862 "2008-10-27T23:38:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/61 "2008-10-28T19:18:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > There is no way on this green earth that that prospect can rationally be described as even remotely equivalent to Marxism in **any** sense of the word, much less in **every** sense of the word. If your concept of taxation is based on “fairness” then you are a Marxist. The idea that it’s wrong to make large somes of money because the income gap is too large has nothing to do with helping poor people earn more money. It’s a redistribution of wealth for no other reason than an arbitrary sense of what is fair. It’s Marxism. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/62 "2008-10-28T19:19:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If your concept of taxation is based on “fairness” then you are a Marxist. The idea that it’s wrong to make large somes of money because the income gap is too large has nothing to do with helping poor people earn more money. It’s a redistribution of wealth for no other reason than an arbitrary sense of what is fair. It’s Marxism. Any economic policy that focuses on distributional fairness rather than economic efficiency is Marxist? Or are you limiting your argument to taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/63 "2008-10-28T19:31:44Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Any economic policy that focuses on distributional fairness rather than economic efficiency is Marxist? Or are you limiting your argument to taxes? From each according to his ability, to each according to their needs. That’s a Marxist viewpoint. From a non-Marxist philosophy the concept of poverty relief should center on providing the tools necessary to succeed. It should not pit the wealthy against the poor. The “pie” is not a fixed entity and should not be treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/64 "2008-10-28T19:33:22Z")
delete mispost ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/65 "2008-10-28T19:34:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > poor people don’t pay taxes. Yes they do. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/66 "2008-10-28T19:37:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If your concept of taxation is based on “fairness” then you are a Marxist. The only thing this shows is that you don’t understand what Marxism is. Hell, the concept of a “fair” tax being a contribution “from each according to his ability” doesn’t even originate with Marx: it’s from that great libertarian hero [Adam Smith](http://www.progress.org/banneker/adam.html)! > [@Adam Smith](#): > > The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/67 "2008-10-28T19:37:59Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Note, please, that it was not intended as an insult, or to lump you in with the loonies. I _did_ post that I considered you a particularly and peculiarly reasonable example. All I meant was that I’d cobbled together, from filtering your posting history through my own left-of-center/leaning more leftward political brain, an impression that you stood athwart the right-of-center, rightward leaning line. I’m not one who instantly associates right-wingism with bigotry or hate…I consider **danceswithcats** , **Airman Doors, USAF** , and **catsix** to be shining examples of sane conservatism (meaning they have a classical conservative approach to economics and personal responsibility). I had you tucked into that pigeonhole, also. It was not a derogatory characterization. No worries. We libertarian-ish types are used to being called conservatives around here. I just don’t like it when it’s used as some type of indication of hypocrisy on my part, since I don’t agree with real conservatives like **Mr Moto** all that much. > [@Magiver](#): > > If your concept of taxation is based on “fairness” then you are a Marxist. I know of very few politicians, Dem or Pubbie, so don’t hold that view. Are they all Marxists, including Bush and McCain? I don’t see them calling for a flat tax. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/68 "2008-10-28T19:40:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > From each according to his ability, to each according to their needs. That’s a Marxist viewpoint. True, though [Marx probably got it from Louis Blanc and/or Henri de St. Simon and/or the Book of Acts.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability_to_each_according_to_his_need) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/69 "2008-10-28T20:14:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The idea that it’s wrong to make large somes of money because the income gap is too large has nothing to do with helping poor people earn more money. And who holds this idea that it is WRONG to make large sums of money? Nice man o’ straw. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/70 "2008-10-28T20:20:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I know of very few politicians, Dem or Pubbie, so don’t hold that view. Are they all Marxists, including Bush and McCain? I don’t see them calling for a flat tax. Exactly right **John Mace**. **Macgiver** ’s views on this are completely off in right field. He should really be reading **Kimstu** ’s posts more carefully, and responding to them. In particular, I’d like to hear his response to the Reagan quote: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by \*\*Ronald Reagan \*\*in 1985 > By hiking the earned income tax credit, indexing it for inflation, and practically doubling the personal exemption, we can make sure that the working families do not suffer under the burden of Federal taxation. Giving a leg up to those struggling to move up is what America is all about. And that’s a top priority of our tax proposal. So Reagan was a Marxist, right **Macgiver**? All Macgiver has done is come up with a definition of 'Marxism" that nobody would ever agree with. ie: Obama is a Marxist if we define Marxist as: anybody who every says the words “fair” and “tax” in the same sentence" ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/71 "2008-10-28T22:25:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The only thing this shows is that you don’t understand what Marxism is. Hell, the concept of a “fair” tax being a contribution “from each according to his ability” doesn’t even originate with Marx: it’s from that great libertarian hero [Adam Smith](http://www.progress.org/banneker/adam.html)! This is nonsense. The Smith quote addresses only the “from each” half of the Marxist tenet, where’s the “to each” half? Also, as one might expect, the Smith quote fits nicely with a flat tax or a sales tax. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/72 "2008-10-28T22:32:18Z")
A more progressive tax structure is nothing close to Socialism. Socialism is the state controlling the means of production. I mean if Obama is more Socialist than McCain then Bush is the re-incarnation of Eugene Debs. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/73 "2008-10-28T23:29:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is nonsense. The Smith quote addresses only the “from each” half of the Marxist tenet, where’s the “to each” half? Also, as one might expect, the Smith quote fits nicely with a flat tax or a sales tax. No, not a sales tax: > [@](#): > > **Adam Smith:** > > 1. “The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State.” “in proportion to the **revenue** which they respectively enjoy” Not “in proportion to the **consumption** which they respectively engage in.” ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/74 "2008-10-29T00:19:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > From each according to his ability, to each according to their needs. That’s a Marxist viewpoint. This sounds like something that Palin regurgitated somewhere. All you need to do is throw in a gratuitous “and also” to really make it resonate. If our tax code isn’t already based on this so-called Marxist viewpoint, then why doesn’t someone tell the IRS? I could have swore that we have things called tax brackets that result in high-income earners paying proportionally more in taxes than those at low end. If the consideration for differing abilities and needs isn’t behind our current tax structure, what could be? Sushi rolls and grape kool-aide? One thing I wish Obama would do is emphasize that he’s not actually raising the taxes of the top 5% to unprecedented levels. He’s simplying returning their taxes to the way they were prior to Bush’s cuts. I’ve seen no evidence that those cuts have done anything except exacerbate our deficit. They certainly haven’t helped the economy. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/75 "2008-10-29T15:13:27Z")
The socialist nominee for president, Brian Moore, was on Colbert. Assuming he knows , he claims Obama is clearly not a socialist. Case closed, ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/76 "2008-10-29T16:59:56Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > No, not a sales tax: > > “in proportion to the **revenue** which they respectively enjoy” > > Not “in proportion to the **consumption** which they respectively engage in.” I see your point, but I think a sales tax, as the sole tax, does fulfill the quote. People spend money commensurate with their ability to do so. If I buy food, necessary clothing (from a place like Target) and a $20,000 car, because that’s what I can afford, and you buy very expensive clothes, jewelry, five flat screen TVs for your mansion, a $100,000 car or two, a yacht and Gulfstream V, you’re paying WAY more in taxes than I am. No? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/77 "2008-10-29T19:58:13Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The socialist nominee for president, Brian Moore, was on Colbert. > > Assuming he knows , he claims Obama is clearly not a socialist. > > Case closed, Yah, because someone with 50% of the vote wouldn’t be a problem for his campaign. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/78 "2008-10-29T20:04:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This sounds like something that Palin regurgitated somewhere. All you need to do is throw in a gratuitous “and also” to really make it resonate. > > If our tax code isn’t already based on this so-called Marxist viewpoint, then why doesn’t someone tell the IRS? The tax code isn’t based on a candidate’s concept of what is fair. So no, it’s not based on Marxism. Obama and Biden, on the other hand, are waging a class warfare campaign complete with threats to any member of the MSM that they will be cut off if they ask an actual question. Beyond the Chavez like nature of this, it doesn’t speak well for a politician who can’t handle the pressure of a REPORTER. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/79 "2008-10-29T20:10:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The tax code isn’t based on a candidate’s concept of what is fair. So no, it’s not based on Marxism. Obama and Biden, on the other hand, are waging a class warfare campaign complete with threats to any member of the MSM that they will be cut off if they ask an actual question. Beyond the Chavez like nature of this, it doesn’t speak well for a politician who can’t handle the pressure of a REPORTER. Did the Kool-Aid (sorry, Flavor-Ade) taste good? West, the reporter that you obliquely mention, has been connected very firmly to the Republican party. There’s not a legitimate journalist who thinks her interrogation of Biden was professional or fair. And it’s not like McCain has been the portrait of openness and interview magnanimity. He’s shut out media outlets numerous times for the very “crime” he claims Obama is shutting out West and her station for. With much less actual reason behind it. Is there some kind of genetic problem involved with being a Republican that prevents adherents from recognizing their own projective tendencies? Because it seems to be completely endemic to the party. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862/80 "2008-10-29T20:12:23Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So Reagan was a Marxist, right **Macgiver**? > > All Macgiver has done is come up with a definition of 'Marxism" that nobody would ever agree with. ie: Obama is a Marxist if we define Marxist as: anybody who every says the words “fair” and “tax” in the same sentence" Reagan lowered taxes and raised revenue. Instead of taking from the rich and giving to the poor, he made the rich richer and siphoned off the spoils. You can’t grow an economy by raising taxes and Reagan understood this. I think there’s a Kennedy quote in there somewhere because he was one of the first to figure it out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-is-a-collectivist-socialist/469862.md?page=5)