# Palin supporters: did you know she's a book banner? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 5, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089 "2008-09-05T00:21:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/81 "2008-09-05T06:55:58Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > OK, I’ll bite. > > "An attempt to ban books from a public library is OK with me, as long as the books are > > 1. > 2. > 3. > > Other titles, I might frown." > > Anyone? Mace? Scylla? Friar? > > Posit me an instance where it’s OK for a public official to actively solicit book banning from a public library. Any instance, any title. Thanks. I think that the point is that she didn’t mention any specific books. Palin was fishing to find out of the librarian would ban books. That speaks volumes. Palin was ready to fire a librarian, and did fire her, when she wasn’t a book-burner. This two-step about naming book titles when that wasn’t the question asked it typical right wing pettifogging. Palin wanted a book burner to start a culture war and fired the librarian for insufficient loyalty after getting the answer. Next the usual furious right wingers will try to blame Clinton. But the party line is apparently to demand the names of books from this witness (the librarian) who is certain that no specific books were mentioned. This kind of non-sequitar response shows how utterly intellectually dishonest the right is and why they screw up so much when they are in charge. It’s like Peggy Noonan praising Palin in her column, but telling the truth about what an inadequate choice she is when she doesn’t know the mic is on. It’s all a bunch of lies. The current crop of wide-stance Republicans will furiously fight for book burning because they got their spam emails to hit their message boards and perpetually promote Palin’s palimpsest pyrotechnics. They do it without thinking and keep on doing it until everyone gets the message: Republicans think book banning is just swell. Do you guys really think that? Really? This and her using her office to settle a divorce court score with her wacko brother-in-law demonstrate to me that if elected she would be more corrupt that either Angew or Cheney as VP and if she were to succeed McCain, she would be stupider and more arrogant than Bush. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/82 "2008-09-05T12:49:00Z")
[http://www.crosscut.com/politics-government/17341](http://www.crosscut.com/politics-government/17341) Local woman on Palin in general. > [@](#): > > While Sarah was mayor of Wasilla, she tried to fire our highly respected city librarian because the librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents rallied to the defense of the city librarian and against Palin’s attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the librarian are on her enemies list to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/83 "2008-09-05T14:47:09Z")
and from **E-Sabbath’s** link: > [@](#): > > Sarah complained about the “old boy’s club” when she first ran for mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of “old boys.” Palin fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the city and as governor, she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people, creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally grateful and fiercely loyal — loyal to the point of abusing their power to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the case of pressuring the state’s top cop. I’m not taking a letter to the editor itself as adequate documentation, but if some feisty journalist researches and verifies this (never mind her tax/borrow/spendspendspend management style) , it’s pretty much explains why cronyism is no way to run a town. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/84 "2008-09-05T15:41:13Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > It may be “virtually unheard of” in Wasilla, but it is very common in administration changes in federal, state, and local government that high-level personnel are replaced by people preferred by the new incumbent. I don’t know about your experiences in small-to-medium towns, but in my experience, it is _not_ routine for police chiefs and librarians to be fired when a new mayor comes to office. Such offices are generally treated more in the manner of civil service jobs, not political appointments. In fact, in many towns, the mayor doesn’t even get to fill a vacancy in the office of the police chief or fire chief or other department heads. Any vacancy is filled according to which applicant scores highest on a civil service exam. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/85 "2008-09-05T16:33:36Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > It depends on whether the police department is an independent agency (usually with an elected chief) or a city department under the authority of the executive. It is not common for the police chief to be subject to removal when the executive changes, because it is not common for the police department to not be an independent agency. The vast majority of police and sheriffs departments AFAIK and IME are independent agencies with independently elected heads (chiefs, sheriffs). I don’t think this is quite accurate. Sheriffs are elected, constitutional officers and Sheriff’s departments operate independently of other local authorities. Police departments are almost always integrated into the municipal government, often falling under the aegis of the “Law Department” or the “Safety Department,” or somesuch. However, the police chief rarely serves “at the whim of the mayor.” That’s simply not how it works. Very often there are civil service protections. Again, in most towns it’s not common for police chiefs, head librarians, and other department directors to be replaced en masse when a new mayor comes to office. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/86 "2008-09-05T16:39:54Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Good to know that makes it irrelevant. :rolleyes: > > Other tidbits from the article: > [@](#): > > Once in office, Ms. Palin asked many of [her opponent] Mr. Stein’s backers to resign — something virtually unheard of in Wasilla in past elections. The public works director, city planner, museum director and others were forced out. The police chief, Irl Stambaugh, was later fired outright. For what it’s worth, I personally knew the public works director, Jack Felton, and worked for him for two years at another location. Jack was a nice guy (he died a few years ago) and a very competent engineer. Everybody liked and respected him, and he seldom had a bad word about anybody. That said, he referred to Palin as “that psychotic bitch”, and wouldn’t discuss it further. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/87 "2008-09-05T16:56:35Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’ll tell you what. If she has not actually banned a book, than you cannot call her a “book banner” without lying. Oftentimes the difference between an attempted rapist and a rapist is the fortitude of the other person involved. It isn’t a reflection on the person. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/88 "2008-09-05T17:13:26Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > From the [NYTimes](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/03/us/politics/03wasilla.html?em):Shortly after becoming mayor, former city officials and Wasilla residents said, Ms. Palin approached the town librarian about the possibility of banning some books, though she never followed through and it was unclear which books or passages were in question. > > Ann Kilkenny, a Democrat who said she attended every City Council meeting in Ms. Palin’s first year in office, said Ms. Palin brought up the idea of banning some books at one meeting. “They were somehow morally or socially objectionable to her,” Ms. Kilkenny said. > > The librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, pledged to “resist all efforts at censorship,” Ms. Kilkenny recalled. Ms. Palin fired Ms. Emmons shortly after taking office but changed course after residents made a strong show of support. . . . > Does this have any effect on your support for her? Pretty much all swiftboating lies. 1. No one but Kilkenny remembers anything about the “banning” being brought up. There are no minutes, memos, emails or anything that mention this. As far as we know, Kilkenny, an avowed opponent of Palin, made up the whole “banning” thing. 2. Emmons was _not_ the “town librarian”. She was an \*appointed politician \*who oversaw the “real” MLS Librarian, who was a Civil Servant. 3. Emmons and the Cheif of Police were loud and outspoken political foes of Palin and openly supported Palin’s opponent in the mayorial election. As soon as Palin was elected, she gave those two appointees (who served at the will of the mayor)- a letter of intent to fire. Emmons then met with Palin and agreed on a compromise regarding the merging of the library and museum dep’t., thus Palin rescinded the letter. Emmons was not fired. 4. Since this was one of the first things Palin did after taking office, it could not have been due to any debate about “book banning” between her and Emmons. 5. No books were banned, Palin did not attempt to have any books banned. There seems to have been a hypothetical question asked by Palin about the process. Even there we aren’t sure of the timing, context or wording. This has been discussed at length for several days in GD= [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=481583&page=4](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=481583&page=4) We have to thank Justin\_Bailey for the only facts on this issue, from agreat cite he found: [http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/510219.html](http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/510219.html) ""Palin said she asked Emmons if she would support efforts to merge the library and museum operations. Emmons said she would, according to Palin… While both Stambaugh and Emmons serve at the mayor’s pleasure, Stambaugh said he has a contract that prohibits the city from firing him without cause. Both Stambaugh and Emmons publicly supported Palin’s opponent, long-time mayor John Stein during the campaign last fall. When she was elected, Palin questioned their loyalty and initially asked for their resignations. But Stambaugh said he thought any questions had been resolved. Emmons, who has been the city’s library director for seven years, would not comment about the affair…“Palin said Friday she now feels Emmons supports her but does not feel the same about Stambaugh. As to what prompted the change, Palin said she now has Emmons’ assurance that she is behind her.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/89 "2008-09-05T17:25:48Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > [http://www.crosscut.com/politics-government/17341](http://www.crosscut.com/politics-government/17341) > Local woman on Palin in general. Not a local woman so much as an avowed politcal opponent of Palin. She is the one who swiftboated Palin by her lies “While Sarah was mayor of Wasilla, she tried to fire our highly respected city librarian (1) because the librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed (2). City residents rallied to the defense of the city librarian and against Palin’s attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter (3).” 1. Not the city Librarian, the \*city’s library director \*,an appointed politcal position that served at the will of the mayor. 2. No one but Kilkenny seems to remember this- it isn’t in any local papers from that time, no memos, no minutes, nothing. The local paper who wrote about the firings (and the paper is clearly not all that happy with what happened) does nopt mention “censorship” or “book bannings” \*at all. \* 3. No rally, no censorship, no backing down. Palin met with Emmons and worked out a compromise as regards merging museum and library depts. Kilkenny either is misremembering or is a big fat liar. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/90 "2008-09-05T17:58:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. No one but Kilkenny remembers anything about the “banning” being brought up. There are no minutes, memos, emails or anything that mention this. As far as we know, Kilkenny, an avowed opponent of Palin, made up the whole “banning” thing. Except that you’re forgetting that Palin admitted to it. She characterized it as “rhetorical,” but that’s really enough of admission to conclude that she isn’t the kind of person I want holding a position of authority. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/91 "2008-09-05T18:07:03Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Except that you’re forgetting that Palin admitted to it. She characterized it as “rhetorical,” but that’s really enough of admission to conclude that she isn’t the kind of person I want holding a position of authority. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/92 "2008-09-05T18:26:37Z")
All of the cities \*Top managers \*were asked to resign: [http://www.mceades.com/graphics/palin\_article1.jpg](http://www.mceades.com/graphics/palin_article1.jpg) Emmons was not singled out. All Top managers were asked to resign. Palin ended up by compromising with Emmons over a dept merge and Emmons stayed on. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/93 "2008-09-05T18:58:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite? [http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1117009&srvc=2008campaign&position=15](http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1117009&srvc=2008campaign&position=15) – > [@](#): > > In December 1996, Emmons told her hometown newspaper, the Frontiersman, that Palin three times asked her – starting before she was sworn in – about possibly removing objectionable books from the library if the need arose. > > Emmons told the Frontiersman she flatly refused to consider any kind of censorship. Emmons, now Mary Ellen Baker, is on vacation from her current job in Fairbanks and did not return e-mail or telephone messages left for her Wednesday. > > When the matter came up for the second time in October 1996, during a City Council meeting, Anne Kilkenny, a Wasilla housewife who often attends council meetings, was there. > > Like many Alaskans, Kilkenny calls the governor by her first name. > > “Sarah said to Mary Ellen, ’What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?” Kilkenny said. > > “I was shocked. Mary Ellen sat up straight and said something along the line of, ’The books in the Wasilla Library collection were selected on the basis of national selection criteria for libraries of this size, and I would absolutely resist all efforts to ban books.’” > > Palin didn’t mention specific books at that meeting, Kilkenny said. > > Palin herself, questioned at the time, called her inquiries rhetorical and simply part of a policy discussion with a department head “about understanding and following administration agendas,” according to the Frontiersman article. Palin asked at least three times about removing books during the library, once during a public meeting, and when asked about it _at the time_, admitted that it had happened. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/94 "2008-09-05T19:28:33Z")
I think the questions are these: Q: Did she try and ban books? A: Yes. Q: Did she upend a little Alaskan town with all kinds of apparent administrative lunacy? A: Yes. Q: Did that apparent lunacy work? A: It seems to have, she went from mayor to Governor to VP candidate (though I admit she was likely only a choice because McNutty was facing obvious defeat if he picked another older, whiter guy) Q: Did she actually have any books banned? A: No. Therefore. 1. She’s not a book banner, even though she talked about it. 2. She’s waaaay out there on the right. She’s tough as nails and takes no crap. All of those things scare people. 3. Her family life is no one’s business but hers. if she took money form the coffers, if she was obviously and patently incompetent, if she was corrupt, if she is a bigot if she has been reputably quoted making racist/homophobic/anti-semitic etc. remarks, hate her until your head falls off. You cannot hate her reasonably and be a thinking person for something she did not do. 3a. Please stop making me defend the Republican 3b. I don’t care what anybody says, nutty as she is, DAMN she’s hot. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/95 "2008-09-05T19:46:20Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > It’s all good, man. I love it. > > I **love** that the NYT is running with a vague second hand account, alleging that she at some point talked to somebody about “banning books,” but without context or explanation or even what books. > > I love that she shows up on the cover of US full of insinuations that her baby is really her daughter’s. > > I love that her daughter is being attacked for being pregnant. > > I love that she is being attacked for not being a stay at home. > > In short, I love everything that the left is trying to do. > > Keep asking for rope. Keep trying to dig up. What would be a good source for you. They’re out there. All over the place. No one has attacked the daughter. Only the Dr. Laura Brigade has attacked her for not being a SAHM You’re completely out of touch with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/96 "2008-09-05T19:50:48Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Q: Did she actually have any books banned? > > A: No. > > Therefore. > > 1. She’s not a book banner, even though she talked about it. Wrong. She’s a book banner that was stopped by the people in her town. She’s still guilty of censorshipy ideals. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/97 "2008-09-05T19:50:49Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > What would be a good source for you. They’re out there. All over the place. Okay, then any MSM source listing the titles of the books she had banned would be fine. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/98 "2008-09-05T20:01:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not a local woman so much as an avowed politcal opponent of Palin. She is the one who swiftboated Palin by her lies > > “While Sarah was mayor of Wasilla, she tried to fire our highly respected city librarian (1) because the librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed (2). City residents rallied to the defense of the city librarian and against Palin’s attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter (3).” > > 1. Not the city Librarian, the \*city’s library director \*,an appointed politcal position that served at the will of the mayor. > > 2. No one but Kilkenny seems to remember this- it isn’t in any local papers from that time, no memos, no minutes, nothing. The local paper who wrote about the firings (and the paper is clearly not all that happy with what happened) does nopt mention “censorship” or “book bannings” \*at all. \* > > 3. No rally, no censorship, no backing down. Palin met with Emmons and worked out a compromise as regards merging museum and library depts. > > Kilkenny either is misremembering or is a big fat liar. According to Time Magazine: > [@](#): > > Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. “She asked the library how she could go about banning books,” he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. “The librarian was aghast.” That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn’t be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving “full support” to the mayor. [http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/99 "2008-09-05T20:06:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Okay, then any MSM source listing the titles of the books she had banned would be fine. > > Regards, > Shodan [PARAPHRASE] Sarah Palin: “I’d like to talk about banning some books that have some bad language.” Librarian: “Hell no! I won’t have any part of that” Sarah Palin: “Did I mention that you’re fired?” People of Wasilla: “Hey! That sucks! We like her!” Sarah Palin: “Oops. Guess I should back off a bit. Anyway, I was just speaking rhetorically about banning books. Never mind. You’re unfired.” Shodan: “See! Since no specific books were named, Sarah Palin is without stain!” [/PARAPHRASE] **Shodan** , you’re such a twit. You give the many reasonable conservatives on this board a bad name. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089/100 "2008-09-05T20:06:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Okay, then any MSM source listing the titles of the books she had banned would be fine. > > Regards, > Shodan The thinkin’ folk from Moose Snout stopped her. But that doesn’t change the fact that she’s agreeable to book banning. That’s what counts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-supporters-did-you-know-shes-a-book-banner/462089.md?page=6)