# Palin thinks the VP is in charge of the Senate **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 21, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956 "2008-10-21T21:57:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/181 "2008-10-23T01:28:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The VP is LIMITED by the constitution to 2 jobs > > 1. Become pres at death etc > 2. Preside over the senate in 2 circumstances > a. cast tie breaking vote > b. certify the count of the electoral college > That is it. Just that. nothing more no advice ,no discussions…nothing. Really? Then why was Harry Truman presiding over the Senate the day FDR died and he became President? There were no tie-breaking votes that day. Certainly the Electoral College had no votes to be certified. So what was Harry doing? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/182 "2008-10-23T01:33:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The VP is LIMITED by the constitution to 2 jobs > > 1. Become pres at death etc > 2. Preside over the senate in 2 circumstances > a. cast tie breaking vote > b. certify the count of the electoral college > That is it. Just that. nothing more no advice ,no discussions…nothing. “Preside over the Senate” is an entire part of the job; it is not limited. Your “a” and “b” are both separate, explicitly empowered parts of the job description. They are not limits on it. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/183 "2008-10-23T01:44:09Z")
Maybe he was bored that day and he wandered over – "What’s up, guys? Any tie-breakers today? No? Shit. Whatever. Carry on. … … Fucking _who_ died?" ---
**Author:** ![Bambro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df705f/32.png) [@Bambro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/184 "2008-10-23T01:52:48Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Here’s a video of a nice discussion of this topic between Chris Matthews and Nancy Pfotenpfeffer. Okay, not so much of a discussion as it is Chris Matthews taking her out behind the woodshed. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-9VW4ewI1M](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-9VW4ewI1M) > > ouch. Oh hell! I _almost_ felt bad for her. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/185 "2008-10-23T02:01:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Really? Then why was Harry Truman presiding over the Senate the day FDR died and he became President? There were no tie-breaking votes that day. Certainly the Electoral College had no votes to be certified. > > So what was Harry doing? Not only that - this was alluded to earlier, so [I looked it up:](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,915612-3,00.html) > [@](#): > > On the Senate floor, meanwhile, the Byrd scheme was pushing toward an explosive conclusion. As Byrd rose, Abourezk walked up the steps to Mondale’s chair. “You’re not going along with this, are you?” he asked bitingly. Flushed and tense, Mondale snapped, “You can be sure I’m going to do the right thing.” > > Byrd, reading from his prepared script, began by arguing that the chair was “required to take the initiative under Rule 22 to rule out of order all amendments which are dilatory or which on their face are out of order.” Responded Mondale, also plainly reading from a script, “The point is well taken, and the chair will take the initiative.” > > Frustrated, Abourezk shouted, “Why did the Vice President come up here to make these rulings? Why did that happen?” Implying that Carter had sent Mondale to end the filibuster, Abourezk declared, “I have been told… that all governments lie … There is one thing I never thought would happen, and that is that Jimmy Carter would lie.” Stung, Mondale told the Senate he knew nothing of the plans to shut off the filibuster until he arrived at the Senate that morning. He said there had been no White House deal, adding, “There is nothing more sacred to me or to the President than our integrity.” > > Then Byrd moved in for the kill. He started calling up amendment after amendment, and Mondale, just as rapidly, ruled each amendment out of order. In just nine minutes, 33 amendments were axed. It was an unprecedented way to short-circuit Senate business, and dozens of enraged Senators leaped to their feet to protest. Mondale stonily recognized only Byrd. > > When Maine’s Ed Muskie eventually got the floor, he accused the Vice President of arbitrarily creating “a new order of things, a change in the rules.” Colorado Democrat Gary Hart charged that "the U.S. Senate has seen an outrageous act.‘’ Swiftly, the senatorial anger zeroed in on Byrd. By now, Byrd was burning too. Referring to the weeklong filibuster, despite the vote for cloture, he insisted, “I have not abused the leadership’s prerogatives. I am trying to keep Senators from abusing the Senate.” Byrd admitted that he had taken “extraordinary advantage of my prerogative as leader,” but insisted that “one has to fight fire with fire when all else fails.” > > With that, Byrd backed off. He promised to call up no more amendments for Mondale to knock down. In theory, the filibuster was still alive. But Abourezk and Metzenbaum, convinced that Carter had sold them out and had sent Mondale in to break up the talkathon, had lost heart. No tie votes that day, right? The Senate cannot pass rules that supersede powers constitutionally granted to the Vice-President, and Byrd and Mondale made use of that back in 1977. Now, if anyone wants to deny this little historical fact or any other points I’ve raised above, please let me know. I’ll be the first to admit that normally this kind of thing doesn’t enter into the discussion - but that doesn’t mean people who argue that the Vice-President has power only in tie votes aren’t wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/186 "2008-10-23T02:16:11Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yeah. Good thing nobody has said anything of the kind. There isn’t a transcript online that I could find, so I made my own: Chris Matthews asks Nancy Pfotenhauer what the job of the Vice President is. She responds: “Obviously the role of the Vice President is to support the president but also to preside when necessary over the US Senate .” At which point Chris Matthews says “no!” and babbles a bit about how it’s such a hard job to defend Palin. Then he says: “the role of the Vice President, let me state it very clearly right now is to replace the president that is necessary. As Colin Powell said on Sunday, that’s the job of the Vice President: to stand ready under the constitution under tragic circumstances to replace the president. Now, that’s one role. The other role is to have only a tie-breaking role as presiding officer in the United States Senate.” The first time I stopped watching the clip just before he said “now, that’s one role” because the man’s voice annoys me and he certainly seemed to be on a tear about how the only thing the VP does is sit around and wait. It certainly seemed to be where he was going. Having watched the rest of the clip, he does go on to say that there is a legislative role to the office. However, I disagree with his characterization of this role as being strictly limited to casting tie-breaking votes. The text from the constitution is actually fairly clear: “The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.” That does not say “the VP can vote ties and not anything else.” It says “the VP shall preside over the Senate, but they only get to vote if there’s a tie.” That is, the job of the VP is to “run” the meeting, and under certain circumstances they can vote. Now, I disagree that the presiding officer is “in charge” of the meeting, as they do not decide what the agenda is and have a very limited scope to influence the proceedings at all. I also think that trying to hold up Calhoun as an example of a VP using his office to influence legislation is dubious. The reason he resigned was because his advocacy came to light. As for Harry Truman being in the Senate on the day Roosevelt died, well, that was most of his job, wasn’t it? You know, being the Prez of the Senate. Of course, if he decided not to show up there would be a temporary replacement. But what would he do with his spare time, then? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/187 "2008-10-23T02:22:23Z")
Since the 1950s the VP has presided less than 1 percent of the time it has been in session. A Pro Tempore is assigned to sit. The VP can address the senate ,only if they grant him permission. Yep a real power in the senate ,that job is. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/188 "2008-10-23T02:24:45Z")
> [@Tenebras](#): > > As for Harry Truman being in the Senate on the day Roosevelt died, well, that was most of his job, wasn’t it? You know, being the Prez of the Senate. Of course, if he decided not to show up there would be a temporary replacement. But what would he do with his spare time, then? He stopped bucks as a hobby. Y’know, for practice. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/189 "2008-10-23T02:30:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Since the 1950s the VP has presided less than 1 percent of the time it has been in session. A Pro Tempore is assigned to sit. > The VP can address the senate ,only if they grant him permission. Yep a real power in the senate ,that job is. Do you need to address the senate to preside over it? I don’t think you do - as presiding over it would entail ruling on procedure like Mondale did in 1977 and not making a speech about the legislation necessarily. I have stipulated that this is not a concern most times - but there are times where it matters, and they have been cited. You haven’t addressed these, and perhaps you should. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/190 "2008-10-23T02:41:48Z")
They can try to rule on procedures, but procdeures are decided by the Senate, so the VP’s “ruling” is basically meaningless. All the VP can really do is “me too” what the Senate already wants. I don’t know why the Palin defenders just can’t admit that she doesn’t know what the hell she’s talking about. Ahhh…it doesn’t matter anyway. This election is as over as disco. This woman will never see the inside of the Senate chamber. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/191 "2008-10-23T02:54:56Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Since the 1950s the VP has presided less than 1 percent of the time it has been in session. A Pro Tempore is assigned to sit. > The VP can address the senate ,only if they grant him permission. Yep a real power in the senate ,that job is. Yes, there is a President Pro Tem for the times when the VP isn’t there…and yes, since the fifties, the VP has seldom exercised their Constitutional power to preside. Which doesn’t erase that power. By the way – [you missed this.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10347027&postcount=593) Apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/192 "2008-10-23T03:01:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They can try to rule on procedures, but procdeures are decided by the Senate, so the VP’s “ruling” is basically meaningless. All the VP can really do is “me too” what the Senate already wants. If that were the case, could you explain to me why all those senators in my link were so pissed off? After all, if what was happening was what the Senate wanted, then they should have been pleased as punch, right? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/193 "2008-10-23T03:07:31Z")
Hey everybody, I was just eating something and my cat gave me the ol’ “Meow?” I took the next ten minutes to explain in great detail to my cat why he could not have any of the food I was eating (which incluced a full comparative analysis of the digestive system and health needs of humans and cats). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/194 "2008-10-23T04:28:23Z")
Presiding over the Senate isn’t a “power.” Presiding over the Senate is no more being “in charge” of it than throwing out the first pitch at a baseball game makes somebody a starting pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/195 "2008-10-23T04:33:21Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Since the 1950s the VP has presided less than 1 percent of the time it has been in session. A Pro Tempore is assigned to sit. > The VP can address the senate ,only if they grant him permission. Yep a real power in the senate ,that job is. In other words, you were wrong. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/196 "2008-10-23T04:35:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > In other words, you were wrong. Right? Once more – presiding is not a power. It’s a ceremonial privilege which carries no force of authority. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/197 "2008-10-23T04:40:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This meant ruling on points of order, recognizing speakers, gavelling sessions open and closed – what a presiding officer does.] And this influences policy how? Does she plan to throw the gavel at people with policies she don’t agree with? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/198 "2008-10-23T05:03:50Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, I’m sure when third graders ask you questions you give them full and complete answers that would get full credit in a college course on the subject. I should think a search of replies to your posts would illustrate quite nicely how third graders are handled around here. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/199 "2008-10-23T06:05:35Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Do you need to address the senate to preside over it? I don’t think you do - as presiding over it would entail ruling on procedure like Mondale did in 1977 and not making a speech about the legislation necessarily. > > I have stipulated that this is not a concern most times - but there are times where it matters, and they have been cited. You haven’t addressed these, and perhaps you should. Yes you do, absolutely surely most assuredly. Unless presiding means sit in the cloak room to you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956/200 "2008-10-23T06:24:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Once more – presiding is not a power. It’s a ceremonial privilege which carries no force of authority. Sure it is. Now it may be a power that doesn’t have a lot of teeth, but its a power nonetheless. This seems to be an odd thing to seek to deny at this stage in the debate, especially through semantic gamesmanship. But just for the record, my previous post was referring to what’s below, as the VP can preside over the senate) with whatever amount of power the word carries) every day if he, or she, likes. [QUOTE=gonzomax] The VP is LIMITED by the constitution to 2 jobs 1. Become pres at death etc 2. Preside over the senate in 2 circumstances a. cast tie breaking vote b. certify the count of the electoral college That is it. Just that. nothing more no advice ,no discussions…nothing. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palin-thinks-the-vp-is-in-charge-of-the-senate/468956.md?page=11)