# Palm County Beach Update **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 8, 2000, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300 "2000-11-08T14:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/21 "2000-11-09T15:30:31Z")
I saw the sample ballot on MSNBC yesterday, and noticed that it didn’t have the punch holes in it. I can see how that would be confusing to some people, especially the elderly. They also spoke to some younger people who were just as confused by it. Here in my precinct, we still have the punch ballots, too. All the candidates are listed on one side, though, so it’s a bit easier. There were a lot of other problems, though. I moved last May, and in August, I went to the City Clerk’s office to change my address for my voter registration. I got my new card in the mail about three weeks ago, with my new precinct on it (I only moved about five blocks, but my precinct still changed). SO, I go to my new polling place. _I’m not in their books._ I’ve got my _new card,_ with all the _correct_ information on it, but I can’t vote there. There were four other people there with the same problem. So, I go to the old polling place. Yes, I’m in their books, but they’ve got the wrong address, too. They’ve got the address for my apartment, that I moved out of in 1996. I moved to a house on the same street, a block away. I changed that address a few years ago. Sigh. They let me vote, though, and did _another_ change of address. Here’s hoping my vote actually counted. ---
**Author:** ![Aglarond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@Aglarond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aglarond)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/22 "2000-11-09T15:39:01Z")
Woops, I posted this in the wrong thread. Here it is a gain. [http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/11/07/results/index.html](http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/11/07/results/index.html) That’s the exact link to the best view of the ballot I’ve seen. There is nothing confusing about it. But, let’s just assume that I had gone to vote on Tuesday and I didn’t understand the ballot. It doesn’t mean I’m stupid, it just means I need a little help understanding what to do. I do remember asking for help my first time voting and recall that the man there was very helpful in explaining the process to me. But, let’s just assume that there was nobody there to help me and I’m standing there with a ballot I don’t understand. Do I just punch out a hole and hope for the best? Hell no. But if I do, and it turns out I was wrong, I have no reason to complain. I did it. I didn’t have to. Your ATM analogy makes sense, but doesn’t work for this. In my experience with ATM machines, you have the buttons at the side of the glass. A few inches below the glass is the actual screen, and the fact that they’re not at the same depth can be very confusing. I know, because I’ve done it. The ballots they used were not like that. There was an arrow pointing almost all the way to the hole and there were no depth issues. If they punched the wrong hole, then it’s something they’re just going to have to live with. ---
**Author:** ![SterlingNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@SterlingNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SterlingNorth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/23 "2000-11-09T16:02:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doctor Jackson \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Does it even look logical that there are more Buck supporters in PB county, than in Dade County (with Miami)? Also the interesting fact that 19,000 of those ballots were thrown out because it was double punched. For Buck and Gore. > > No, it doesn’t. That also doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the ballot itself. As a matter of fact, the double punch issue truely has nothing to do with the ballot itself unless you are alleging that the ballot design caused two holes to be puched at once. That’s one claim I have not heard. Actually I’m alleging that after someone punched Buchanan, by mistake, they may have tried to ‘undo’ it by punching again. That may be idiotic, but I can’t discount offhand stories people being refused new ballots. I’m not hearing anything about the strange deviation of Palm Beach from the entire rest of the state of Florida > [@](#): > > In addition, while 19,120 ballots were double punched for the Presidential race, only 3,783 people made that mistake on the Senate portion of the ballot. Huh? The design is the same on both sections, but the Presidential portion of the ballot caused over 5 times as many errors? Talk about statistically off. (BTW, I have seen no reports of which two candidates were double punched most often even though I have been trying to find out. Do you have a site for your Gore/Buchanan assertion?) > > > [@](#): > > > > And forget the fact that the ballot design is likely illegal. > > Yes, forget that because it is not a ‘fact’. This same type ballot has been in use in Plam Beach county in particular and Florida in general for many years. It was approved in advance by Democrat Theresa LePore, the county supervisor of elections. Do you think an ‘illegal’ ballot would not have been challenged before now? Even the lawsuit filed by 3 PBC residents claims the ballots were “deceptive, misleading and confusing”, not illegal. No it hasn’t. Previous years all the names were on the left hand side of the ballot. This year, they made the change to make the print bigger, in an ironic attempt to make it more user frendly. And according to some, Florida law specifies that voters mark an X in the blank space to the **right** of the name of the candidate they want to vote for and therefore the design used in Palm Beach violated the law. Simply put, left is not right. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > If you have poor eyesight (like most of the seniors), or if you don’t notice the right hand side candidates you could accidently assume that hole #2 is Al Gore’s punch. > > One local election official was quoted by CNN as saying that the very reason the ballot was not even more clear was the fact that it was designed with large print specifically to help the elderly. You can’t use the ‘poor eyesight’ defense both ways. They didn’t make the holes bigger, just the letters > [@](#): > > No doubt, the Florida election was hosed. Neither candidate will be satisfied with the outcome and half the country will be royally pissed either way. I don’t think there is any way to fairly fix the problems at this point. A re-vote will certainly skew the results no matter if there were legitimate problems or not. People on both sides know the exact outcome needed. You want to see voter fraud? Re-vote PCB (or the whole of Florida, for that matter). IMHO, the recount results should be certified as is and all subsequent elections in the the state of Florida should be closely monitored at the federal level. Remedies for the lawsuits, should the plaintiffs win, should be limited to future election reform. > \*\* I agree with you here, there aren’t any good solutions, but it’s getting tough to tell if we’ll ever get an exact count from this goofy state. ---
**Author:** ![SterlingNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@SterlingNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SterlingNorth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/24 "2000-11-09T16:14:14Z")
And I think this is an important statement to read before we continue calling the elderly of Palm Beach morons. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGauss \* > I think you need to distinguish stupidity from perceptual problems. They do not need to run together. > > Older people can be sharp as a tack yet still have problems with spatial and geometric perception. > > To get a feel for it, try wearing glasses but first cover the lenses with vaseline. That should put you on visual par with the old folks. Next, stuff cotton in your ears. Now, you know what their hearing is like. Then, wear thick gloves but only after taping your fingers with hockey tape. Good, now you know what their fingers can feel like. And finally, for good measure, have your friend drive a few nails into your hips for you. This should give you a wee sense of what it feels like to have arthritis. Then go vote. > > Please note, though, that none of this has affected your intellect. In fact it is only because of your underlying intellect that you’d have a chance to overcome these burdens. > > Just wait. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Gazoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ce73a5/32.png) [@Gazoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gazoo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/25 "2000-11-09T16:19:14Z")
Here’s a link to the [recount results and variances](http://election2000.tbo.com/election2000/flacounty.htm) by county. ---
**Author:** ![tubagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b77776/32.png) [@tubagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tubagirl)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/26 "2000-11-09T16:39:51Z")
I live in Seminole County in Florida. When my husband went to vote the ballots weren’t the unch ballots, thy were the scantron sheets. I have been listening to people all day calling into radio stations talking about how confsing tit was. Basically they had to hang these punch sheets on pegs that weren’t lined up correctly. The oprganization of the ballot itself was rediculous. What I don’t understand is why they would use antiquated means of voting. Not only the “old” people were having a problem with these ballots down here. verything was jsut very disorganized. ---
**Author:** ![starfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@starfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/starfish)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/27 "2000-11-09T17:00:19Z")
Tubagirl, you need a new keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![ladybug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/46a35a/32.png) [@ladybug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladybug)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/28 "2000-11-09T17:16:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SterlingNorth \* > \*\*And one last thing. There are reports that the holes were misaligned. The sample ballot they give you out before you vote doesn’t have holes on it, just arrows! Look at the holes again. Imagine they are shifted down _one_ centemeter – not an extreme supposition. Add possible poor eyesight and some poll workers incorrectly telling people to punch the second hole down (which was reported), and yes it is possible for there to be an innocent screw up. > \*\* I’ve heard similar reports in which some Palm Beach County voters asked the poll workers for help because they didn’t know which hole to punch for their candidate. According to the local NBC station, the poll workers told them that they didn’t know which one was the correct one. I don’t know how many times this happened, though. Many of the complaints stemmed from the fact that the ballot did not line up correctly with the punch holes. I can see how this would be confusing for some people. I just heard on CNN that under Florida law, the punch holes _must_ be to the right of the name. ---
**Author:** ![ladybug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/46a35a/32.png) [@ladybug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladybug)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/29 "2000-11-09T17:20:32Z")
Thanks for the link, **Gazoo**. I’ve been trying to find a page that gives county-by-county results. ---
**Author:** ![SterlingNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@SterlingNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SterlingNorth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/30 "2000-11-09T17:25:31Z")
I now hear that there are protests in W. Palm Beach over this. And a Judge will look into the lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/31 "2000-11-09T17:36:48Z")
Bush’s lead is at 830. Gore added about 800 votes from Palm Beach County (where, irony of ironies, Rush Limbaugh lives and broadcasts). Speaking of Palm Beach County… 11/09/00 9:00 a.m. The Palm Beach Legal Precedent No cause for Dem squawking. By Dave Kopel of the Independence Institute ccording to some Florida Democrats, the particular layout of ballots in Palm Beach was confusing to voters, and resulted in mistaken votes for Buchanan which were actually intended for Gore. The Florida judiciary has already addressed the issue of post-election claims about ballot confusion, and the precedent is unfavorable to those who want the election overturned. In the September 10, 1974, Republican primary in Pinellas County, several losing candidates brought a post-election suit against county election officials. (Pinellas sits on the Gulf Coast, and includes St. Petersburg.) At issue was the longest ballot in Pinellas County history. To save space so that every candidate and issue could fit on the voting machine, the election officials had created a ballot on which the list of candidates for some offices appeared on two lines. In a particular race, for example, the first three candidates, listed alphabetically, appeared on one line, and the last two candidates, alphabetically, appeared on the next line. A lawsuit demanding a new election was filed by candidates who appeared on the lower line and lost. The Florida trial court agreed. But on October 15, 1974, the Second District Court of Appeal unanimously overturned the trial judge, and let the original election stand. Nelson v. Robinson, 301 So.2d 508 (Fla. Ct. App. 2d Dist., 1974). The Court of Appeal explained: Keeping in mind that we are talking about a claim made after an election, and not one which may have been enforceable before, if a candidate appears on the ballot in such a position that he can be found by the voters upon a responsible study of the ballot, then such voters have been afforded a full, free and open opportunity to make their choice for or against that particular candidate; and the candidate himself has no constitutional right to a particular spot on the ballot which might make the voters’ choice easier. His constitutional rights in the matter end when his name is placed on the ballot. Thereafter, the right is in the voters to have a fair and reasonable opportunity to find it; and as to this, it has been observed that the constitution intended that a voter search for the name of the candidate of his choice and to express his of the candidate of his choice without regard to others on the ballot. Furthermore, it assumes his ability to read and his intelligence to indicate his choice with the degree of care commensurate with the solemnity of the occasion. The Court of Appeal also cited a U.S. Supreme Court case in which the high Court explicitly and unanimously affirmed a Pennsylvania federal court which had ruled that an unfavorable location on the ballot was not a form of unconstitutional discrimination against a candidate. Gilhool v. Chairman & Com’rs., Philadelphia Co. Bd. of Elec., 306 F.Supp. 1202 (E.D.Pa.1969), aff’d 397 U.S. 147 (1970). In Palm Beach this year, the ballot form was approved beforehand by Democratic Supervisor of Elections Theresa LePore. This fact relates directly to the Florida Court of Appeal’s point that “it has often been held that one who does not avail himself of the opportunity to object to irregularities in the ballot prior to the election may not object to them after.” ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/32 "2000-11-09T17:41:42Z")
Doctor Jackson said: > [@](#): > > In addition, while 19,120 ballots were double punched for the Presidential race, only 3,783 people made that mistake on the Senate portion of the ballot. Huh? The design is the same on both sections, but the Presidential portion of the ballot caused over 5 times as many errors? Talk about statistically off. I heard a lady on the radio say that she thought she had to punch out the 3rd hole for Gore and the fourth hole for Lieberman. Looking at how the ballot was laid out, I can see how somebody might think the hole right beneath one’s presidential favorite was for his running mate. The fact that the presidential ballot section listed two names for every slot and the senatorial ballot section only one probably accounts for the wide difference in double punches (but it sure doesn’t say much for Palm Beach if 15,000+ voters did not realize that we don’t vote separately for President and Vice President) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/33 "2000-11-09T18:03:23Z")
Florida’s Pinellas Recount Shows Swing to Gore CLEARWATER, Fla. (Reuters) - Elections workers in Florida’s Pinellas County launched a second recount of votes on Thursday after a first recount produced a swing of more than 400 votes to Vice President Al Gore (an elections official said. The large swing was due in part to some 400 ballots that workers failed to count on election night. `They were in house but the (counting machine) operator did not follow procedure,'' Pinellas Deputy Supervisor of Elections Joan Brock said. `They hadn’t been counted election night.’’ The election night tally of 406,555 ballots cast in Pinellas, a west coast county that encompasses Clearwater and St. Petersburg, showed 200,212 votes for the vice president and 184,884 for Texas Gov. George W. Bush . The recount on Wednesday of 406,948 ballots – including those previously uncounted – had 200,616 for Gore and 184,823 for Bush. The results produced a loss of 61 votes for Bush and a gain of 404 for Gore, a net swing of 465 votes. If the Pinellas recount results hold, they would reduce the Bush margin in Florida to about 500 votes with about half of Florida’s 67 counties reporting recount results. Bush’s election night lead of 1,784 had already been reduced to 941 with early recount results. Brock said Pinellas began recounting its votes early on Thursday and would have results by midafternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/34 "2000-11-09T18:12:22Z")
I just started this thread over in GD [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=45842](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=45842) Not trying to steal anyone’s thunder or step on anyone’s toes, but I was hoping all of us interested could agree on a single site where we posted any recount “news flashes” we came across. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/35 "2000-11-09T18:18:15Z")
A 400 vote swing for Gore on 400 found ballots? Am I understanding this correctly? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/36 "2000-11-09T18:38:04Z")
No. Some 400 extra votes were found, but the article says that “the large swing was due _in part_ [to those votes]”. (Emphasis mine.) You can’t find 400 extra votes and have them make 61 Bush votes dissappear. The 465 Gore gain was county-wide. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/37 "2000-11-09T18:49:30Z")
Ok, I’ve carried this over to the other thread. I’m not suggesting anything other than it seems weird (not weird like vote conspiracy, just _weird_) that this one county showed such a jump in the difference. Believe me, I’m the last to grasp at some kind of conspiracy thing. I did not mean for that to come across in my post. Obviously, there is some other factor involved. Given that the only significant variable brought to my attention (and my attention is frazzeled, I admit) is the found ballots, I ask for insight. Why the huge jump? Has any other one county shown a 400 vote swing? (I guess any answers should be posted in the GD thread) ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/38 "2000-11-09T21:16:51Z")
**…AND NOW BUSH IS AHEAD BY ONLY _403!!!_** (Hey, this is exciting.) ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/39 "2000-11-10T01:06:49Z")
Evidently the sample ballot did not accurately portray the true configuration of the official ballot. The hole positions were not shown on the sample ballot. I personally feel that this represents sufficient avenue for a legal challange. There should be a complete re-election held in Palm Beach county. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300/40 "2000-11-10T01:16:44Z")
One last update for the night (hey, it’s 1 AM over here) 65 of 67 counties re-counted Bush leads Gore by **225** votes Manatee and Seminole still to be counted I don’t think Gore is going to go into the lead, but it will be _extremely_ close. It seems inevitable that the state will have to wait for the absentee ballots to come in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palm-county-beach-update/40300.md?page=3)