# Palmer vs. DC (Right to Bear Arms) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237 "2014-07-28T13:32:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/1 "2014-07-28T13:32:46Z")
It only took 5 years for the district court to release the opinion. That, and the fact that the attorney had to file two Writ of Mandamus to attempt to force the court to issue their opinion. [Some background](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/09/dc-gun-carry-rights-case-blocked-in-court/): > [@](#): > > Gura was also Dick Heller’s attorney in the 2008 landmark Supreme Court case that overturned the District’s 30-year total ban on handguns. After the Heller decision, D.C. technically abided by that ruling by establishing a complicated firearms registration system. > > In addition, the city passed a law in 2009 that prohibited open and concealed carry of firearms, which prompted the Palmer lawsuit. > > "The ban is obviously unconstitutional. I don’t think there’s any doubt of that,” said Gura, who represents the Second Amendment Foundation. “People have a right to carry a handgun for self defense, which Heller confirmed.” > > The Palmer case has been in legal limbo several times. > > Judge Henry Kennedy was the first judge assigned to the case. He heard oral argument in Jan. 2010 but retired without issuing a ruling. > > Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts intervened in July 2011 and reassigned the case to Judge Frederick Scullin of New York. > > Even then, Scullin took over a year to rehear arguments. After the judge heard from both sides in Oct. 2012, he promised that he would make a decision “within a short period of time.” > > While a “short period of time” can be interpreted to mean different things, a 20-month delay in issuing a district court decision is so rare that many find it suspicious. > > This is the second time that Gura has asked the appeals court to intervene. After a year of waiting for Scullin to issue his ruling, the lawyer filed a writ of mandamus to the appeals court. In Dec. 2013, the court denied the request, saying that the delay was not “egregious or unreasonable.” But Scullin is still radio silent. > > Fed up, Gura filed the second writ in which he wrote that the persistent delay is “unconscionable” and “fundamentally unfair.” (Disclosure: In the writ, Gura quoted from a column I wrote in The Washington Times titled “Justice Delayed is Justice Denied.”) Well, this weekend the [opinion was finally released:](http://alangura.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/DCT_OPINION.pdf) > [@](#): > > In light of Heller, McDonald, and their progeny, there is no longer any basis on which this Court can conclude that the District of Columbia’s total ban on the public carrying of ready-to-use handguns outside the home is constitutional under any level of scrutiny. Therefore, the Court finds that the District of Columbia’s complete ban on the carrying of handguns in public is unconstitutional. > > Accordingly, the Court grants Plaintiffs’ motion for summary judgment and enjoins Defendants from enforcing the home limitations of D.C. Code § 7-2502.02(a)(4) and enforcing D.C. Code § 22-4504(a) unless and until such time as the District of Columbia adopts a licensing mechanism consistent with constitutional standards enabling people to exercise their Second Amendment right to bear arms.4 Furthermore, this injunction prohibits the District from completely banning the carrying of handguns in public for self-defense by otherwise qualified non-residents based solely on the fact that they are not residents of the District. So from at least Saturday after this ruling was issued to probably on Monday or Tuesday when the district scrambles, DC is constitutional carry with no permit required. Currently the 4th, 7th, and 9th district has recognized carry outside the home as part of the 2nd amendment. The 2nd, 3rd, and I believe 5th districts have ruled in the opposite. This is just at the district level, and will likely not be the end of this case. But it is a clean case to take to SCOTUS if DC doesn’t appeal in some fashion. What should be the appropriate limit for carry permits, if a permit is necessary at all, and what sort of scheme would be constitutional? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/2 "2014-07-28T18:06:03Z")
New article today from [Volkh](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/07/28/licensed-handgun-carry-now-legal-in-district-of-columbia-palmer-v-dc/): > [@](#): > > The District Court did not issue a stay, but the D.C. Attorney General’s Office announced on Sunday that it would seek a stay. As reported by the Washington Post, D.C. Metropolitan Police Chief Cathy Lanier has approved an order which allows District residents to carry a handgun IF AND ONLY IF the handgun has been properly registered with the District Police, pursuant to the District’s handgun registration ordinance. > > What about non-residents? According to the Post article, “Lanier’s instructions to police also said that residents of other jurisdictions without felony records would not be charged under the ban on carrying pistols.” Not quite constitutional carry, but pretty close to it for non-prohibited non-residents and for residents who already have a permit to own until and unless a stay is issued. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/3 "2014-07-28T19:17:57Z")
What I took away from the original _Heller_ decision was that the majority was uncomfortable with outright bans, but didn’t want to declare that laws regulating guns were _ipso facto_ unconstitutional. If DC had come up with a permit system, even a ridiculously restrictive one, the court might have gone along. But DC insisted that regulation included “regulate out of existence”, and the court simply couldn’t go along with that. The phrasing “there is no longer any basis on which this Court can conclude that the District of Columbia’s total ban on the public carrying of ready-to-use handguns outside the home is constitutional under any level of scrutiny” indeed makes the court sound reluctant. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/4 "2014-07-28T21:53:21Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > If DC had come up with a permit system, even a ridiculously restrictive one, the court might have gone along. But DC insisted that regulation included “regulate out of existence”, and the court simply couldn’t go along with that. Other ridiculously restrictive permit systems have been declared unconstitutional in recent years. After all, the entire purpose of making them ridiculously restrictive is to regulate them out of existence. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/5 "2014-07-28T23:01:31Z")
It is pretty clear that some level of regulation of carrying a firearm in public is permissible. Personally, I think the herculean efforts and expense necessary to own a gun in DC is unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/6 "2014-07-29T14:47:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It is pretty clear that some level of regulation of carrying a firearm in public is permissible. > > Personally, I think the herculean efforts and expense necessary to own a gun in DC is unconstitutional. Yepper. Let’s look at what it took for one law-abiding citizen to get a gun after the _Heller_ decision: [Emily Gets Her Gun: The Journey Begins](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/5/miller-emily-gets-her-gun/) [Inside D.C.'s gun registry](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/6/miller-inside-dcs-gun-registry/) [D.C.’s only gun source](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/11/miller-dcs-only-gun-source/) [Steps to gun ownership in D.C.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/14/miller-steps-gun-ownership-dc/) [Who’s eligible for a gun in D.C.?](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/17/miller-whos-eligible-gun-dc/) [Learning to shoot a gun](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/31/miller-learning-shoot-gun/) [Washington’s unsafe, gun safety class](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/nov/7/miller-washingtons-unsafe-gun-safety-class/) [Taking the D.C. gun safety class](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/nov/14/miller-taking-dc-gun-safety-class/) [Interstate Travel for a D.C. Gun](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/nov/17/miller-interstate-travel-dc-gun/) [Choosing a gun](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/dec/9/miller-choosing-gun/) [Making guns near D.C.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/6/miller-making-guns-near-dc/) [Getting a gun in Virginia](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/11/miller-getting-gun-virginia/) [Why I still haven’t bought a gun in D.C.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/17/miller-why-i-still-havent-bought-gun-dc/) [I bought a gun, but…](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/23/miller-i-bought-gun-dc/) [Transferring a gun into D.C.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/24/miller-transferring-gun-dc/) [I will testify before D.C. city council about guns](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/26/miller-i-will-testify-dc-city-council-about-guns/) [Applying to register a gun in D.C.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/27/miller-applying-register-gun-dc/) [My testimony at D.C. city council](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/31/miller-my-testimony-dc-city-council-video/) [Running D.C.’s gun-owner gauntlet](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jan/31/running-dcs-gun-owner-gauntlet/) [My gun registration is approved](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/feb/3/miller-my-gun-registration-approved/) [Emily got her gun!](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/feb/8/miller-emily-got-her-gun/) From October 5, 2011, to February 8, 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Chicago\_Faucet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chicago_faucet/32/13910_2.png) [@Chicago\_Faucet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicago_Faucet)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/7 "2014-07-29T17:54:17Z")
I don’t really have anything to add here, except some context and content. From [The Washington Blade](http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/07/22/a-gay-perspective-on-d-c-gun-rights/) > [@](#): > > I spent most of my young life opposed to gun rights, as many urban folks do. I grew up in a dangerous city in the 1970s and guns were scary things that got pointed at you when a bad guy asked, “Can I ride your bike?” > > But my view has changed since I have encountered many gays and lesbians who have or carry arms for self-defense against hate crimes or for home defense. Some lesbians, in particular, view their arms as critical to home defense, especially if they live alone. I imagine that many straight single women have a similar view. > > Since I started writing this column many of my lesbian friends have come out to me as Second Amendment fans and confessed that they own guns: rifles, shotguns and hand guns that are not quite legal. Interesting! > > The difference between my friends who own guns and the criminals who commit crimes with guns is that my friends are using guns for defense and would never instigate a crime; rather, they are protecting themselves from one. > > The Supreme Court has ruled that individuals have a right to bear arms. But even if you disagree with that it is hard to make a case that gun restrictions reduce crime. > > The District has had one of the most restrictive laws against gun ownership in the nation, yet that did not prevent it from being, in the 1990s, the “Murder Capital” or cause the NBA Washington team to be renamed from the Bullets to the Wizards, as there were so many bullets flying around the District in a bad way. Nor did the District’s gun laws prevent the tragedy of a 14-year-old shooting 10 people and killing four this past March through the open door of a minivan. > > So if, with such strict gun laws, horrible crimes like that still happen, I am left to conclude that gun laws do not work: they do not prevent crime but only prevent law-abiding citizens from protecting themselves. And gays often need the most protection. > > That is why Tom Palmer, one of the plaintiffs in the landmark Supreme Court case of Heller v. D.C., sued the District regarding its ban on handguns. Palmer, who is gay, was close to being a victim of a hate crime until be pulled out his gun and defended himself, perhaps saving his life. I had the opportunity to interview Palmer and our exchange follows. > > Washington Blade: What made you decide to get involved in gun rights? > > Tom Palmer: I have long been a believer in the idea that if you aren’t harming the rights of others, you should be left alone. My own experience showed that a firearm evens up the odds when brute force is on the side of brutal people. > > I’m alive today because my mother gave me a firearm to carry and I had it when I needed it. No one got killed, which is just the way I prefer it. Had I not had it that night in 1982, we would have been beaten or stabbed to death. > > Blade: How did you get involved in the Heller case? > > Palmer: It was an interesting coincidence. I had told various people about how having a firearm saved my life and the story was passed along. A gay friend who’s also a gun owner asked me one day if I might be interested in a legal case to defend second amendment rights. I said yes and the name he gave me led me to someone else and then to a colleague, Robert Levy [of the Cato Institute], who had helped to organize the case and who financed it 100 percent, despite not being a gun owner himself. > > Blade: Eleanor Holmes Norton and the D.C. Council chose to turn down an opportunity for D.C. to have voting rights because of the Ensign amendment to the bill, which significantly restricted the District’s ability to regulate guns. What do you think about that choice? > > Palmer: It just tells us what really matters to them. They just don’t care one whit about the constitutional rights of residents of the District. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/8 "2014-07-29T18:07:15Z")
From the Pink Pistols: [“Armed gays don’t get bashed.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Pistols) Self defense is everyone’s right. Yesterday the [DC police issued a memo](http://alangura.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/07-137-14.pdf) that detailed how they will act following the ruling. The memo is consistent with what I posted in post #2 - though there is instruction to note any non-resident found carrying for potential further investigation. No word yet on if there is a stay on the ruling or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/9 "2014-07-29T23:26:40Z")
And today [a stay on the ruling](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/29/federal-judge-grants-90-day-stay-dc-gun-case/) was issued: > [@](#): > > Judge Scullin wrote in the order that he granted the stay based on the agreement by the two parties that “an immediate 90-day stay is appropriate to provide the city council with an opportunity to enact appropriate legislation consistent with the Court‘s.” . I predict an appeal. I certainly appreciate DC and Chicago funding efforts to fight for gun rights. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/10 "2014-07-30T18:52:34Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > And today [a stay on the ruling](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/29/federal-judge-grants-90-day-stay-dc-gun-case/) was issued: > . > > I predict an appeal. I certainly appreciate DC and Chicago funding efforts to fight for gun rights. And the immediate reaction from some DC council members was to say they were consulting experts to draft the most restrictive regulations that could pass muster. So in addition to already ridiculous requirements to register a gun, they are contemplating further more ridiculous requirements to carry the gun. I wonder if they would get a “stay” if they strike down DC’s registration requirements as too restrictive. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/11 "2014-07-30T19:01:11Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Yepper. Let’s look at what it took for one law-abiding citizen to get a gun after the _Heller_ decision: > > [Emily Gets Her Gun: The Journey Begins](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/5/miller-emily-gets-her-gun/) > [Inside D.C.'s gun registry](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/6/miller-inside-dcs-gun-registry/) > [D.C.’s only gun source](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/11/miller-dcs-only-gun-source/) > [Steps to gun ownership in D.C.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/14/miller-steps-gun-ownership-dc/) > [Who’s eligible for a gun in D.C.?](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/17/miller-whos-eligible-gun-dc/) > [Learning to shoot a gun](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/31/miller-learning-shoot-gun/) > [Washington’s unsafe, gun safety class](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/nov/7/miller-washingtons-unsafe-gun-safety-class/) > [Taking the D.C. gun safety class](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/nov/14/miller-taking-dc-gun-safety-class/) > [Interstate Travel for a D.C. Gun](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/nov/17/miller-interstate-travel-dc-gun/) > [Choosing a gun](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/dec/9/miller-choosing-gun/) > [Making guns near D.C.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/6/miller-making-guns-near-dc/) > [Getting a gun in Virginia](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/11/miller-getting-gun-virginia/) > [Why I still haven’t bought a gun in D.C.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/17/miller-why-i-still-havent-bought-gun-dc/) > [I bought a gun, but…](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/23/miller-i-bought-gun-dc/) > [Transferring a gun into D.C.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/24/miller-transferring-gun-dc/) > [I will testify before D.C. city council about guns](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/26/miller-i-will-testify-dc-city-council-about-guns/) > [Applying to register a gun in D.C.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/27/miller-applying-register-gun-dc/) > [My testimony at D.C. city council](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/31/miller-my-testimony-dc-city-council-video/) > [Running D.C.’s gun-owner gauntlet](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jan/31/running-dcs-gun-owner-gauntlet/) > [My gun registration is approved](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/feb/3/miller-my-gun-registration-approved/) > [Emily got her gun!](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/feb/8/miller-emily-got-her-gun/) > > From October 5, 2011, to February 8, 2012. I followed this series and I was a little surprised at how many aboslutely unecessary obstacles were put in place. Requiring $500 in fees is ridiculous. Thats a months rent for a lot of people in DC to buy something that might cost $200. I suspect there is a case somewhere suing DC over how burdensome these laws are. I hope that some judge asks them if they didn’t understand what Heller meant. I look forward to carry permit laws that are equally burdensome if not moreso. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/12 "2014-07-30T19:19:46Z")
Why anyone would take Emily Miller’s columns seriously is beyond me. The complaints on the process (which has not been in place for a couple years now) are so ludicrous, not to mention the slightly cheesecake photos of her with various guns in silly poses. Seriously, she complains that when she was given a list of firearms instructors, her calls went to voicemail. She complains about needing to get a ride to a gun store just 10 minutes outside of DC, but apparently it isn’t a huge deal for her to get a ride to the Beretta factory that is about 35 minutes outside of DC (and you have to drive through Anacostia to get there!!!). She is repeatedly unable to follow directions, and of course that isn’t her problem, it’s those mean DC Democrats – errr, DC bureaucrats. I read that whole series of columns when they came out, and based on her total incompetence, I find it difficult to believe she has a valid registration on her car or if she has filed taxes in the last dozen years. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/13 "2014-07-30T19:30:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why anyone would take Emily Miller’s columns seriously is beyond me. The complaints on the process (which has not been in place for a couple years now) are so ludicrous, not to mention the slightly cheesecake photos of her with various guns in silly poses. > > Seriously, she complains that when she was given a list of firearms instructors, her calls went to voicemail. > > She complains about needing to get a ride to a gun store just 10 minutes outside of DC, but apparently it isn’t a huge deal for her to get a ride to the Beretta factory that is about 35 minutes outside of DC (and you have to drive through Anacostia to get there!!!). > > She is repeatedly unable to follow directions, and of course that isn’t her problem, it’s those mean DC Democrats – errr, DC bureaucrats. I read that whole series of columns when they came out, and based on her total incompetence, I find it difficult to believe she has a valid registration on her car or if she has filed taxes in the last dozen years. You’ve identified a couple of complaints as ludicrous, but she makes more than a couple. For example, she points out that the requirements include a D.C.-certified instructor to give the required firearms safety course, but city laws do not permit the required course to be given inside the city. Many of the instructor names listed on the sheet the city police gave out showing DC-certified instructors were “independent.” That is, they taught the class in their homes. As Miller points out: > [@](#): > > As a woman facing the prospect of going alone to this class in neighboring states of Virginia or Maryland, I’d like to find someone who seems legit. The way I see it, I’m calling a strange man and saying, “I’m unarmed. I know you are armed. And yes, I’d like to meet you in a strange place.” Feeling safe is the reason I want the gun in the first place. Do you believe this is a legitimate complaint, or a ludicrous one? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/14 "2014-07-30T19:42:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you believe this is a legitimate complaint, or a ludicrous one? Just slightly less ludicrous than her feeling unsafe in the parking lot of a gun shop. Guess what - the DC DMV probably hands out a list of driving instructors, and I’ll bet you anything that not all of them are located in the Tysons Corner upscale shopping mall. If I give you a list of 47 possible vendors for a service, you’re free to choose one that comports with your preferences, including their location. The idea that if any of them operate a business out of their house (and is it no longer true that many Federally-licensed firearms dealers also do not have a storefront business?) brings the whole list under suspicion is just more evidence that she’s a first-class dolt who is looking for things to complain about. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/15 "2014-07-30T19:56:45Z")
By the way, Emily Miller’s articles make it out like it takes anyone four months to register a firearm in DC. It took Dick Heller about 30 days to register his first gun with the city under the exact same rules, which have since been relaxed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/16 "2014-07-30T19:58:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Just slightly less ludicrous than her feeling unsafe in the parking lot of a gun shop. > > Guess what - the DC DMV probably hands out a list of driving instructors, and I’ll bet you anything that not all of them are located in the Tysons Corner upscale shopping mall. Her complaint was that not one of the instructors was in DC. This is in sharp contrast to DC driving schools, of which there is no lack within the DC city limits. And this wasn’t a market problem: DC law did not permit the instruction to be given in DC. > [@](#): > > If I give you a list of 47 possible vendors for a service, you’re free to choose one that comports with your preferences, including their location. The idea that if any of them operate a business out of their house (and is it no longer true that many Federally-licensed firearms dealers also do not have a storefront business?) brings the whole list under suspicion is just more evidence that she’s a first-class dolt who is looking for things to complain about. Why do you bring up federal firearms dealers? The issue here was instructors licensed to teach the DC-approved firearms instruction course. There is no relevance to whether federal firearms dealers have to have a storefront or not. She’s not seeking a federal firearms dealer. So, again, her complaint is that no one who teaches the approved course does so in DC, that the list of DC-certified instructors is out of date, inaccurate, and gives no guidance for whether the instructor is part of a company or a self-employed guy working from his basement. She points out that, as a woman, she has concerns about dealing with the latter. None of that strikes me as ludicrous. Do you still disagree? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/17 "2014-07-30T19:59:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > By the way, Emily Miller’s articles make it out like it takes anyone four months to register a firearm in DC. It took Dick Heller about 30 days to register his first gun with the city under the exact same rules, which have since been relaxed. Dick Heller was a security guard who already had the requisite training; he didn’t need to take it as part of the process. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/18 "2014-07-30T20:08:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Dick Heller was a security guard who already had the requisite training; he didn’t need to take it as part of the process. I see, I guess signing up for a class in someone’s basement does tend to take about 90 days. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/19 "2014-07-30T20:29:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Her complaint was that not one of the instructors was in DC. This is in sharp contrast to DC driving schools, of which there is no lack within the DC city limits. > > And this wasn’t a market problem: DC law did not permit the instruction to be given in DC. I understand that the heart of the matter here is that the DC government did not allow such instruction, but as a practical matter, a DC resident complaining that they can’t have various services within city limits falls on deaf ears with me. Want to go to an airport? Oh my gosh, you have to leave DC. Want to buy a new car? Either you buy a VW or you have to go to Maryland or Virginia. Want to buy golf clubs? I don’t think you can actually buy a set of irons anywhere in DC anymore. Want to play paintball? Yep, out of luck. How about if you want to plant a tree in your back yard? Well, there’s that Home Depot on Rhode Island Avenue, otherwise you’re headed for the suburbs. The idea that life in DC sometimes involves trips to the suburbs to do things is like saying that it can be warm here in July. No kidding, Sherlock. > [@](#): > > Why do you bring up federal firearms dealers? The issue here was instructors licensed to teach the DC-approved firearms instruction course. There is no relevance to whether federal firearms dealers have to have a storefront or not. She’s not seeking a federal firearms dealer. So explain to me why firearms instructors operating out of their house is a significant concern, when it is also perfectly legal to buy a firearm from someone operating out of their house. If you do not wish to do business with someone giving firearms safety lessons or selling guns out of their house, you are free not to do that. And guess what: she didn’t have to go to someone’s house for the instruction. > [@](#): > > So, again, her complaint is that no one who teaches the approved course does so in DC, that the list of DC-certified instructors is out of date, inaccurate, and gives no guidance for whether the instructor is part of a company or a self-employed guy working from his basement. She points out that, as a woman, she has concerns about dealing with the latter. > > None of that strikes me as ludicrous. Do you still disagree? If so, why? I think the idea that the government is obliged to keep updated business records on who offers what services that you are seeking is silly. I’ve had several occasions to find an FAA medical examiner, and guess what: I’m sure the FAA made a responsible effort to keep its list of physicians up to date, but it still took me a few phone calls to make an appointment. Plus, if I called up the FAA and asked them how much the doctors would charge for a Class III medical evaluation, do you think the FAA would have told me? Ms. Miller complains that the MPD were not willing to tell her how much the firearms instructors will charge her. That’s another silly complaint of hers. The fact that Emily Miller claims that it took her more than a week – and then ultimately signed up for a class with someone not even on that list and everything worked out fine – once again indicates she is probably not capable of intermediate-level life skills. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/20 "2014-07-30T21:22:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I see, I guess signing up for a class in someone’s basement does tend to take about 90 days. As I believe I mentioned above, she deliberately sought to avoid taking a class in someone’s basement: > [@](#): > > As a woman facing the prospect of going alone to this class in neighboring states of Virginia or Maryland, I’d like to find someone who seems legit. The way I see it, I’m calling a strange man and saying, “I’m unarmed. I know you are armed. And yes, I’d like to meet you in a strange place.” Feeling safe is the reason I want the gun in the first place. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237.md?page=2)