# Palmer vs. DC (Right to Bear Arms) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237 "2014-07-28T13:32:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/61 "2015-05-20T21:18:39Z")
Perhaps a better comparison for the difficulty in obtaining a gun in DC would be the accessibility to abortion services, (another constitutionally protected right). When you have to drive several hundred miles and face a hoard of screaming anti gun activists with signs depicting children with their heads blown off, then you have a reason to complain. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/62 "2015-05-20T22:00:06Z")
I’m not seeing how the comparison is on point. Can you elaborate? Is the standard of permissible barriers to exercising constitutional rights whether one has to drive several hundred miles and face a tumult of uncomfortable images? If all I had to do was drive several hundred miles to obtain a carry permit, even if I had to go through a gauntlet of distasteful images, that would be no problem at all. As it stands, I have no viable way to obtain a permit. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/63 "2015-05-21T01:47:36Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Regardless of the level of effort required to travel outside a jurisdiction to complete requirements set forth, I contend it is unconstitutional to require actions to be performed to exercise a constitutional right that cannot be exercised within the jurisdiction. In a practical sense, what is constitutional is what the US Supreme Court says is constitutional. Offering your opinion in fine. My opinion is that their refusal to allow keeping and bearing of guns on Capital Hill, including their building, may or may not be constitutional, but clearly shows reprehensible hypocrisy. The District of Columbia has a lower suicide rate than any state: [http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm) It seems to me highly plausible that the difficulty and time it takes DC residents to obtain highly effect self-destruction tools prevents a great number of impulsive suicides. Homicide is, on average, a less impulsive act, and DC has a lot of those (although the total gun death rate in DC is still [below the national average](http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-per-100000/)). While I think confiscating guns from armed men would be way too dangerous, and I don’t want to lock up gun enthusiasts, I do want to discourage others from joining their number. DC regulations keeping gun stores at a distance seem to make the District a safer place. Hopefully, from my POV, a small leftward shift in Supreme Court composition will cause the accepted constitutional interpretation to turn away from allowing every corner of the US to be an armed camp. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/64 "2015-05-21T05:08:40Z")
There is no simple correlation between guns and suicide. Guns are practically unknown in Japan, and yet the Japanese suicide rate is far higher than the American rate. The Japanese expend great ingenuity in finding new ways to commit suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/65 "2015-05-21T10:48:25Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Perhaps a better comparison for the difficulty in obtaining a gun in DC would be the accessibility to abortion services, (another constitutionally protected right). When you have to drive several hundred miles and face a hoard of screaming anti gun activists with signs depicting children with their heads blown off, then you have a reason to complain. The drive of several hundred miles is correctly attributed to government action. But the hoard of screaming protesters are not government employees. That difficulty can’t be part of the calculus of any analogy about barriers the government places in front of the exercise of a constitutional right. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/66 "2015-05-21T11:07:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the hoard of screaming protesters are not government employees. Horde. Unless the government has been hoarding abortion protesters. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/67 "2015-05-21T13:41:21Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Horde. Unless the government has been hoarding abortion protesters. Cold storage at FEMA camps. Thawed and armed with posters as needed. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/68 "2015-05-21T15:52:09Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > The District of Columbia has a lower suicide rate than any state: I know you are very interested in linking all gun discussion towards one of suicide but that’s not really at issue here. This is not about gun ownership in general since that issue is settled. This is about carry. So unless you are talking about folks applying for a CCW, obtaining one, and then subsequently committing suicide with their legally concealed weapon while outside their home, this is a non sequitur. And while I have great sympathy for those that suffer from mental illness that drive them to suicide - this is not sufficient to impact the constitutional rights of other millions of folks. * * * Another donation to the Second Amendment Foundation in bound. I really should just be a lifetime member. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/69 "2015-05-21T17:22:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Horde. Unless the government has been hoarding abortion protesters. In case they become scare. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/70 "2015-05-22T00:42:52Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > There is no simple correlation between guns and suicide. Perhaps, but there is an actual correlation between gun ownership rates and how often a parent wakes to be told that their child has died violently, whether at their own hand or that of another. Yes, Japan does currently have a suicide plus homicide rate higher than the US. That’s not because guns protect. It’s because there are causes of violent death other than easy tool availability. As a result, Japan, and I believe South Korea, are, today, outliers. The United States is not. Nor is the District of Columbia. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/71 "2015-05-23T14:25:23Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I > > The District of Columbia has a lower suicide rate than any state: > > [http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm) The [District of Columbia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.) has a homicide rate of 13.9 per 100,000 versus a [national average](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States) of 4.7. As you go down the list the numbers are higher. Rape 37.3 vs 27. Robbery 589 vs 114. Aggravated assault 538 vs 242. You’re 3 times as likely to be murdered in DC and 5 times as likely to be robbed. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/72 "2015-05-23T15:10:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re 3 times as likely to be murdered in DC and 5 times as likely to be robbed. Of course I get that. There are cultural differences that lead to the violence in some places being more outward directed, some more inward directed. The chances that a parent in DC will be told their child is dead of gunshot are a lot less than in states where it is easier to buy a legal gun, such as Wyoming and Alaska and Louisiana. See: > **[Deaths Due to Injury by Firearms per 100,000 Population | KFF](https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-per-100000/)** > > guns, gun-related deaths ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/73 "2015-05-26T01:09:29Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Of course I get that. There are cultural differences that lead to the violence in some places being more outward directed, some more inward directed. > > The chances that a parent in DC will be told their child is dead of gunshot are a lot less than in states where it is easier to buy a legal gun, such as Wyoming and Alaska and Louisiana. See: > > [http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-per-100000/](http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-per-100000/) Well I get that too but I’m not sure I see the positive side of it. Is a parent going to be happier that their child was beaten dead with a baseball bat or fewer deaths by gunshot? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/74 "2015-05-26T01:25:14Z")
Are you, Phillyguy purposely conflating any death due to gunshot with the right to carry? ---
**Author:** ![gunchris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@gunchris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunchris)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/75 "2015-05-31T03:26:18Z")
the important thing is that all rights are created equal. I’m sure people have read the Bible and found it impossible to live up to the moral expectations and committed suicide, I’m sure someone has read the Quran and has done a suicide attack. We let people own and carry religious books anyway. After 9-11-01 some idiot killed a Sikh because he was angry at Muslims - we let idiots read newspapers anyway. People will always be tempted to limit others freedoms “for their own good” it could be argued we should not let people protest police shootings until they have had a ten day waiting period to “cool off” - like they do in CA for gun ownership. A free society does its best to respect rights and take the issue seriously - I voted for Clinton, Mondale, Dukakis, Jimmy Carter … Its a damm shame that respecting the COTUS has become some kind of R verses D thing ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/76 "2016-05-17T23:37:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > In response to the ruling in Palmer last year, DC adopted a highly restrictive gun-permitting system, colloquially referred to as ‘may issue’. This is similar to systems in place in Maryland, NJ, NY, and CA. > > On Monday a federal judge issued a [preliminary injunction](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/federal-judge-again-rules-key-part-of-new-dc-gun-law-unconstitutional/2015/05/18/1a8e58d4-fdc8-11e4-8b6c-0dcce21e223d_story.html) in _[Wren v DC (pdf)](https://www.firearmspolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Wrenn-v-Lanier-decision-order-MPI.pdf)_ barring enforcement of the ‘good reason’ provision of the DC permitting system for concealed carry permits. > > Four criteria are required for a preliminary injunction to be granted: > [ol] > [li]a substantial likelihood of success on the merits,[/li][li]that it would suffer irreparable injury if the injunction were not granted, [/li][li]that an injunction would not substantially injure other interested parties, and [/li][li]that the public interest would be furthered by the injunction.'[/li][/ol] > > From the article: > While just at the district level, this is another victory for the SAF and Alan Gura. > > It would be wonderful if DC appealed and this went to SCOTUS to strike down ‘may issue’ nation wide. Oh to dream. I searched but I think I must have forgotten to update this thread when some news broke in Dec-15. In the matter of Wrenn v. DC as I quoted above, the opinion was [vacated based on jurisdictional grounds.](http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-dc-circuit/1720807.html)The original opinion authored by Skullin who was a visiting judge at the time. > [@](#): > > Before the visiting judge may be designated and assigned by the Chief Justice, the chief judge of the receiving district must “present ․ a certificate of necessity.” 28 U.S.C. § 294(d). Then, and only then, may the Chief Justice of the United States “designate and assign” the judge duties in the receiving district. Id. Although Judge Scullin had served under a properly issued designation, the difficulty in the present case is that designation was limited to specific and enumerated cases. The present litigation is not one of those cases. > The error in this case is quite understandable. The calendar committee of the district court assigned the matter to Judge Scullin because it deemed the case to be related to another case over which Judge Scullin presided. The difficulty is, while the earlier case was within the Chief Justice’s designation, the present one is not. As a result, the Wrenn case was essentially given a do-over. Here is the [denial of preliminary injunction.](http://blog.californiarighttocarry.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/3-7-1620wrenn20opinion1.pdf) I would quote relevant parts, but in general I think Judge Collar-Kotelly got it wrong. But an additional case was also filed. The above was through the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF). Another case was filed with the help of the Pink Pistols. This case ruled in favor of plaintiffs and has ruled that the “may issue” scheme adopted by DC is likely unconstitutional. That case is[Grace et al v. District of Columbia.](http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Grace_Memordum-Opinion.pdf) I’ll have to read the opinion before I comment further, but here is an article talking about it from the [Chicago Tribune:](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-dc-concealed-carry-gun-law-unconstitutional-ruling-20160517-story.html) > [@](#): > > In imposing a preliminary injunction pending further litigation, U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon reignited a running battle over the Second Amendment in the District and its courts where three different judges have now weighed in with varying conclusions. > > “The enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table,” Leon wrote in a 46-page opinion, quoting a 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court decision in 2008 in another District case that established a constitutional right to keep firearms in one’s home. > … > “The District’s understandable, but overzealous, desire to restrict the right to carry in public a firearm for self-defense to the smallest possible number of law-abiding, responsible citizens is exactly the type of policy choice the Justices had in mind,” he wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237/77 "2016-05-24T20:04:30Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Perhaps, but there is an actual correlation between gun ownership rates and how often a parent wakes to be told that their child has died violently, whether at their own hand or that of another. Yes, Japan does currently have a suicide plus homicide rate higher than the US. That’s not because guns protect. It’s because there are causes of violent death other than easy tool availability. As a result, Japan, and I believe South Korea, are, today, outliers. The United States is not. Nor is the District of Columbia. That’s right. Despite being a pretty extreme outlier in gun ownership it is NOT an outlier in suicide. And concealed carry permits don’t seem to have any fucking impact at all on suicides. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/palmer-vs-dc-right-to-bear-arms/694237.md?page=3)