# Pandemic opens the door to the mark of the beast in Revelation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2020, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919 "2020-04-16T12:13:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/41 "2020-04-21T21:55:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Just a happy mid-pandemic thought It _is_, actually - biblical prophesy makes me happy as I realize how silly it is and how much humanity (in general) has abandoned it. Makes me optimistic for the future. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/42 "2020-04-21T22:26:18Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Just a happy mid-pandemic thought, with antibody testing we can know who is immune and who is not. It may be possible to mark these people to be safe to buy and sell and work. As we don’t know what exactly the mark is it may be something like we already have on the phones, either using finger print ID or facial recognition. Saint John when looking at these events might have seen people holding their right hand or their forehead to the readers. Also Trump makes a great beast, or at least on of it’s heads. Or, maybe, just maybe, John of Patmos was writing about first century C.E. Rome - that is, his own time - and the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Domitian; maybe he cloaked it in gaudy apocalyptic language because that was a familiar genre of Israelite literature, and a safe way of criticizing the Empire, and he was aligning his work with other apocalyptic works like Daniel, II Baruch, and IV Ezra. Possibly he intended and expected the Christian community to recognize and understand his visions as referring to contemporary events and persons. Just maybe… Nah, that’s just crazy talk. He was obviously writing about Trump and facial recognition software. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/43 "2020-04-21T23:03:55Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Or, maybe, just maybe, John of Patmos was writing about first century C.E. Rome - that is, his own time - and the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Domitian; maybe he cloaked it in gaudy apocalyptic language because that was a familiar genre of Israelite literature, and a safe way of criticizing the Empire, and he was aligning his work with other apocalyptic works like Daniel, II Baruch, and IV Ezra. Possibly he intended and expected the Christian community to recognize and understand his visions as referring to contemporary events and persons. Just maybe… > > Nah, that’s just crazy talk. He was obviously writing about Trump and facial recognition software. Duh. Yes, he did and was. But that doesn’t really change anything. The entire premise of the book is that all of this is cyclical–what happened back in OT times is happening again. Thus what happened then can happen now. And the apocalyptic literature you are talking about were prophesies. So John really was also talking about what would happen in the future, because human nature doesn’t change. Totalitarianism still arises, and they’ll try to limit religious freedom and other freedoms. Tyrannical people will try to take power. Famine, disease, wars, etc. will continue to rampage. Books of the Bible don’t become scripture unless the intended audience thought that the books would be useful in the future. And if they thought that the book only covered things that were now in their past, it wouldn’t be included as part of Scripture. That’s not to say the wild supernatural interpretations are correct, or that understanding this aspect of human nature necessarily makes the book supernatural in origin. And people who try to make it predict the future in any specific sense are missing the point. But so is treating it like a book that is only relevant in the past. Like most of the Bible, it deals with aspects of human nature of the day, and humans haven’t actually changed all that much–at least, not in their core nature. We still have murder, thievery, rape, etc. And we still have tyrants, disease, war, and even famine. And those are themes of the book. Even if you don’t treat the Bible as divine, it does have a lot to say. Some of it may be bad and promote things that are bad, but it also contains good stuff, like most other works. Also, you guys really need to work on actually using the beliefs of people to convince them. The best way to convince a Christian of something is to use the Bible and argue it actually agrees with you, not to try and convince them that the Bible is false. Y’all fail in rhetorical tactics at times. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/44 "2020-04-21T23:52:30Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Also, you guys really need to work on actually using the beliefs of people to convince them. The best way to convince a Christian of something is to use the Bible and argue it actually agrees with you, not to try and convince them that the Bible is false. Y’all fail in rhetorical tactics at times. Dump honesty and pretend that I believe in parts of the Bible just to con people into agreeing with me? Not my style-I _don’t_ believe that the ends justify the means. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/45 "2020-04-22T02:32:28Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, he did and was. But that doesn’t really change anything. The entire premise of the book is that all of this is cyclical–what happened back in OT times is happening again. Thus what happened then can happen now. And the apocalyptic literature you are talking about were prophesies. > > So John really was also talking about what would happen in the future, because human nature doesn’t change. Totalitarianism still arises, and they’ll try to limit religious freedom and other freedoms. Tyrannical people will try to take power. Famine, disease, wars, etc. will continue to rampage. > > Books of the Bible don’t become scripture unless the intended audience thought that the books would be useful in the future. And if they thought that the book only covered things that were now in their past, it wouldn’t be included as part of Scripture. > > That’s not to say the wild supernatural interpretations are correct, or that understanding this aspect of human nature necessarily makes the book supernatural in origin. And people who try to make it predict the future in any specific sense are missing the point. > > But so is treating it like a book that is only relevant in the past. Like most of the Bible, it deals with aspects of human nature of the day, and humans haven’t actually changed all that much–at least, not in their core nature. We still have murder, thievery, rape, etc. And we still have tyrants, disease, war, and even famine. And those are themes of the book. > > Even if you don’t treat the Bible as divine, it does have a lot to say. Some of it may be bad and promote things that are bad, but it also contains good stuff, like most other works. > > Also, you guys really need to work on actually using the beliefs of people to convince them. The best way to convince a Christian of something is to use the Bible and argue it actually agrees with you, not to try and convince them that the Bible is false. Y’all fail in rhetorical tactics at times. Well, yes, like all literature, the Bible, Revelation included, reflects human nature. Which, as you point out and I firmly believe, does not change. The Bible has insights on humans because it was written by humans, who had the same joys, fears, pettiness and grace in 4400 BCE as they did in 96 CE, 1737 CE, and 2020 CE. “Men’s men; gentle or simple, they’re much of a muchness”, as George Eliot put it. The Bible is a store of 2,000 years of one people’s literature, so of course there is good to be found in its pages - beautiful poetry and song, sensible moral advice, exciting tales of adventure and wit. I was by no means saying Revelation is worthless.( Although my understanding of Israelite prophetic literature is that they were not talking about the future, but the current state of the people.) You yourself, however, said > [@BigT](#): > > And people who try to make it predict the future in any specific sense are missing the point. Which is exactly what **kanicbird** , and Harold Camping, and William Miller do; not understanding the cultural context in which Revelation was written, they think John could see the future and was describing a _specific_ time and a _specific_ person. The Whore of Babylon isn’t first-century Rome, it’s the Catholic Church, or the Illuminati, or the Knights Templar, or the Jewish-Bolshevist-Masonic conspiracy, or the New World Order; the Beast of the Sea isn’t Nero or Domitian, but the Pope, or Napoleon, or Obama, or King Juan Carlos of Spain\*. People like the OP take an ahistorical reading of the text, and think it predicts exact future events. Which is just silly. \*Yeah, I don’t get that one, either. But apparently some crackbrains in the 80’s and 90’s decided that the late King of Spain was the Antichrist. Something about Spain being the 11th nation to join the EU, and the King’s involvement in the Middle East peace process. Also the letters of his name add up to 666 in ten different languages, including Russian, German and English. No, I don’t understand it, either. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/46 "2020-04-22T03:04:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah, Trump is like something right out of the Book of Revelations: > \* > "…The beast I saw resembled a fat orangutan, but had tiny hands like those of a child and a mouth like that of a shady reality show host. The Fox gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed into a horrendous haircut. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. People worshiped The Fox because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “What the heck did he just say?” The beast was given to Tweet proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forthy-eight months. It opened its mouth to scream “fake news!”… "\* 😃 😃 😃 Meanwhile, consider that Jehovah must hate all [insert targets here] because he kills them. Or he loves them so much that he gathers them to him ASAP. Or he loves the Communist Chinese because he made so many of them. Or he loves cockroaches because… hey, wait there! > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Dump honesty and pretend that I believe in parts of the Bible just to con people into agreeing with me? Apparently that’s a common syndrome. There’ll be pie in the sky when we die. Save me a piece. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/47 "2020-04-22T15:05:14Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Forsooth, my lord, he is milder in doctrine than many Christian sects of the end times, and his inspirations do resound as those of the _Turke_, lolling on Oriental cushions in the _Seraglio_ of Constantinople, in indolent dreams of _Haschisch_. Delightful. Thank you for sharing that. > [@Johanna](#): > > Y[sup]r.[/sup] Ob[sup]_t._[/sup] Sv[sup]_t._[/sup], > J. Perhaps even more delightful. I don’t send a lot of emails, but I intend to incorporate this into the majority of the ones I do send in the future. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/48 "2020-04-22T15:15:39Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, what’s to say it has not happened before? Why does one event in heaven have to be at a single time on earth? Could not the beast be in several times throughout our timeline? Jesus said some of you will not taste death, and the early church believed the time was near, perhaps it was, and still is. Well in that case, since to the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day, maybe the ‘seven years’ of the Tribulation actually consist of the first 2557 millennia after Christ. 😃 “Jesus said some of you will not taste death” - well, that’s simple - there really _was_ a pre-Trib Rapture, and it took place back in the first century CE. So in just another 2,555,000 years, Jesus will return in triumph to vanquish the Antichrist. Can’t wait. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/49 "2020-04-22T16:36:34Z")
The pandemic will have to get in line with every other event in human history since the writing of Revelations that was presumed to trigger the beginning of the End Times prophesied by Saint John. I can think of several that have triggered such thought even in my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/50 "2020-04-22T22:58:18Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Delightful. Thank you for sharing that. > > Perhaps even more delightful. I don’t send a lot of emails, but I intend to incorporate this into the majority of the ones I do send in the future. Thank you! I meant to make all the superscript letters underlined, not italicized. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/51 "2020-04-22T23:03:31Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > My mom’s otherwise intelligent friend thinks that Bill Gates is going to develop a vaccine and that will be the mark of the beast. Are you talking about the vaccine with the microchip? I’ve heard about that too, and I don’t believe it either. On a related note, I’ve heard for more than 30 years that the heel stick that’s done on a newborn baby to collect blood for PKU and other genetic disorder screening is actually the implantation of a microchip. In the late 1990s, I asked some OB nurses if this was true (in a “just kidding” way) and they said it wasn’t, but I already knew that. I’ve seen it done, and there’s nothing on the end of that lancet but a sharp point. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/52 "2020-04-22T23:13:28Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Revelation 6:2: > “And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.” > ‘Corona’ means ‘crown’ Genesis 6:14\* “They say she comes on a pale horse, but I’m sure I hear a train; O boy! I don’t even feel no pain; I guess I must be driving myself insane.” \*6th album, 14th song ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/53 "2020-04-23T06:32:46Z")
I’ve been trying to find Apocalypse (Unfolding) aka Revelations of The Other St John and read in Klingon because it’s likely more understandable than English translations. I can’t even find a print version. Is it a conspiracy? In the Klingon Apocalypse, is J-L Picard the Beast? Or is Odo? 😕 I wonder about English translations of Apocalypse, or any versions but the original, if any. I don’t think an original manuscript exists so we don’t really know what The Other St John wrote, only what later scribes were allowed or ordered to scribble. But I wonder if he wrote of concepts totally alien to later mindsets. Some cultures’ lack of concepts was discussed [way back here](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=70174). Metaphor, or inadequate language, or “adjusted” texts - what applies? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919/54 "2020-04-23T16:39:48Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Genesis 6:14\* > “They say she comes on a pale horse, but I’m sure I hear a train; O boy! I don’t even feel no pain; I guess I must be driving myself insane.” > > \*6th album, 14th song ::Standing ovation applause:: And the Lamb Lies Down… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pandemic-opens-the-door-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-in-revelation/851919.md?page=2)