# Papal refusal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 16, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670 "2006-10-16T19:32:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/1 "2006-10-16T19:32:17Z")
As is well known, when a vacancy in the papacy occurs, the College of Cardinals (or, at least, those under the age of 80 at the time the vacancy occured) elect the new Pope. Once a candidate receives the required number of votes, he is asked if he accepts his election and, upon affirming that he does, chooses his regnal name. I realize that what happens in conclave is supposed to be secret, but I’m kind of curious – is there any record of any candidate refusing the papacy after receiving the requried number of votes? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![FormerMarineGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/65b543/32.png) [@FormerMarineGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FormerMarineGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/2 "2006-10-16T19:54:17Z")
A pretty good article here [http://www.americamagazine.org/reese/america/a-papel1.htm](http://www.americamagazine.org/reese/america/a-papel1.htm) > [@](#): > > Once a pope is elected, his election cannot be invalidated even if he bought the election. Nor is he bound by any promises he made to get votes, even if these promises were made under oath. So it seems that if a pope is elected, he can not really get out of it (probably short of leaving the Church). But I remember reading somewhere that Pope Saint Gregory VII refused to become the Pope, but I am not sure if that was prior to voting or after he was elected to the papacy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/3 "2006-10-16T20:01:45Z")
[QUOTE=zev\_steinhardt] As is well known, when a vacancy in the papacy occurs, the College of Cardinals (or, at least, those under the age of 80 at the time the vacancy occured) elect the new Pope. Once a candidate receives the required number of votes, he is asked if he accepts his election and, upon affirming that he does, chooses his regnal name. I realize that what happens in conclave is supposed to be secret, but I’m kind of curious – is there any record of any candidate refusing the papacy after receiving the requried number of votes? Zev Steinhardt [/QUOTE] Maybe. Rumor has it that St. Philip Benizi was elected the papacy; when he heard the results, he supposedly bolted from the conclave and went into hiding on Mount Tuniato until Pope Gregory X was chosen. In 1605, Clement VIII died, and was succeeded by Leo XI who reigned only twenty-six days, and then by Paul V. In both conclaves Cardinal Robert Bellarmine was considered a strong candidate, but he scuttled his own election by saying he didn’t want the job. Some accounts have him doing this before the ballots are cast; some, after. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/4 "2006-10-16T20:04:01Z")
I swear that I thought you had your Paypal account suspend. I was about to come in here and… ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/5 "2006-10-16T20:27:31Z")
[QUOTE=FormerMarineGuy] A pretty good article here [http://www.americamagazine.org/reese/america/a-papel1.htm](http://www.americamagazine.org/reese/america/a-papel1.htm) So it seems that if a pope is elected, he can not really get out of it (probably short of leaving the Church). [/quote] I’m not so certain about that. According to Canon Law, the pope can resign. I’m also fairly certain that I remember reading that the newly-elected Cardinal is formally asked if he accepts the election… the implication being that he _can_ refuse the election (and the College will then go back and attempt to elect another candidate). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/6 "2006-10-16T22:07:52Z")
[QUOTE=zev\_steinhardt] I realize that what happens in conclave is supposed to be secret, but I’m kind of curious – is there any record of any candidate refusing the papacy after receiving the requried number of votes? [/QUOTE] The hermit monk Pietro del Morrone was elected pope in 1294. A messenger was dispatched to his cave in Abruzzo to inform him of the good news; he promptly refused the tiara, saying that he’d rather remain an ascetic hermit. However, he was well-known in the region and regarded as a pious man, so a large crowd of commoners, led by the kings of Naples and Hungary and several cardinals, came to beg that he accept. He attempted to flee, but in the end he was persuaded to accept the election; he was then crowned Celestine V in the nearby town of L’Aquila. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/7 "2006-10-16T22:15:25Z")
In 1494, a deadlocked conclave was inspired/tricked?/manipulated? into selecting an ancient (79 year old) monk to become pope Celestine V. From July through December, he, lacking any political ambitions or knowledge and lacking any training or skills in administration (even leaving aside the matter of politics), pretty much made a mess of the whole thing, giving multiple persons that same offices (because he could not keep track of who had asked and who he had already bestowed them upon). Driven stir crazy by the need to officiate at so many official acts (when he just wanted to retire to his cell to pray) and having driven the rest of the church organization nuts with his confused and conflicting orders, he and the cardinals agreed that he should step down. The turmoil of his selection had caused one of the conclave to die of stress, so the deadlock was broken and Celestine had naively appointed several more cardinals, mostly favoring the faction that had mainpuilated him into power. So on his retirement, the leader of that group was elected Pope as Boniface VIII. Boniface lost no time in publishing a decree that stated > [@](#): > > Whereas some curious persons, arguing on things of no great expediency, and rashly seeking, against the teaching of the Apostle, to know more than it is meet to know, have seemed, with little forethought, to raise an anxious doubt, whether the Roman Pontiff, especially when he recognizes himself incapable of ruling the Universal Church and of bearing the burden of the Supreme Pontificate, can validly renounce the papacy, and its burden and honour: Pope Celestine V, Our predecessor, whilst still presiding over the government of the aforesaid Church, wishing to cut off all the matter for hesitation on the subject, having deliberated with his brethren, the Cardinals of the Roman Church, of whom We were one, with the concordant counsel and assent of Us and of them all, by Apostolic authority established and decreed, that the Roman Pontiff may freely resign. We, therefore, lest it should happen that in course of time this enactment should fall into oblivion, and the aforesaid doubt should revive the discussion, have placed it among other constitutions _ad perpetuam rei memoriam_ by the advice of our brethren. So the current church rules continue to statethat a pope may resign. Despite the fact that Celestine was canonized, Dante decided that his failure to take charge, (which led to more infighting that resulted in the schism of the Avignon Papacy) was sufficient cause, so Dante put him in Hell in the Divine Comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/8 "2006-10-16T22:59:25Z")
I’ve heard that the future Pope Boniface persuaded Celestine V to resign by whispering through the wall of his monastic cell, “Celestine, step down. The burden is beyond your ability.” The simple-minded Celestine took this for the voice of God and did as he was told. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/9 "2006-10-16T23:44:52Z")
[QUOTE=FormerMarineGuy] So it seems that if a pope is elected, he can not really get out of it (probably short of leaving the Church). [/QUOTE] Sounds like he can get out of it if he wants to, but he can’t be forced to step down as pope, even if it comes out that he was elected fraudulently. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/10 "2006-10-16T23:50:27Z")
[QUOTE=Alive At Both Ends] I’ve heard that the future Pope Boniface persuaded Celestine V to resign by whispering through the wall of his monastic cell, “Celestine, step down. The burden is beyond your ability.” The simple-minded Celestine took this for the voice of God and did as he was told. [/QUOTE] If he was that simple, he needed to step down. Boniface proved his point adequately. ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/11 "2006-10-16T23:58:26Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] In 1494, a deadlocked conclave was inspired/tricked?/manipulated? into selecting an ancient (79 year old) monk to become pope Celestine V. . . . Despite the fact that Celestine was canonized, Dante decided that his failure to take charge, (which led to more infighting that resulted in the schism of the Avignon Papacy) was sufficient cause, so Dante put him in Hell in the Divine Comedy. [/QUOTE] Huh? 1494? 170 years after Dante died? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/12 "2006-10-17T00:36:20Z")
[QUOTE=Neidhart] Huh? 1494? 170 years after Dante died? [/QUOTE] 1. Read my post, which came a few minutes before **tomndebb** ’s. 🙂 Once upon a time I wrote a huge post on Celestine V here, but I think it was lost during the Great Board Crash of two-thousand-and-something. Here’s the gist of it, though: Pietro di Murrone was a hermetic, ascetic monk who roamed the hills around Aquila. When Pope Nicholas IV died in 1292, political feuding prevented the Sacred College from electing a new pope for two years. Finally acknowledging the deadlock, the cardinals agreed upon the elderly Pietro, thinking that the aged and reclusive priest would be a safe choice to head the Church while they continued their corrupt politicking. The saintly country man, they reasoned, would be completely lost in the bureaucracy of Rome, and would be easy to manipulate into doing what they wanted. Besides, he was so old that he would soon be dead, by which time each faction thought it would be able to gain the upper hand for the next papal election. The news of his election came as a complete surprise to Pietro. He was not even a bishop at the time, and had no idea he was in the running. He at first refused the office, but a delegation from Rome was dispatched to his mountain enclave to beg him to accept the honour. It was joined by hundreds of thousands of common folk from all around Italy. Seeing such an earnest show of support, Pietro reluctantly acquiesed, and left his life of fasting and prayer to receive the papal tiara as Celestine V. Contrary to the expectations of the conclave that elected him, the new pope immediately set about appointing new cardinals and bishops, instituting and abolishing laws, reforming monastic orders, and so on. These acts caused huge upheavals within the Church. His successors later claimed that he was simply incompetent, but there are those who believe that Celestine was fully aware of what he was doing and was trying to undo much of the corruption and centralization in the Church. Whatever the reason, the frequency and speed at which the reforms were instituted earned him the enmity of the Church’s upper echelons, and soon the cardinals were plotting of how to rid themselves of him. Cardinal Benedetto Caetani, an expert in canon law, was appointed to determine whether it was possible for a pope to resign. After serious deliberation over the question of whether there was, in fact, any power on earth who is authorized to accept such a resignation, Caetani eventually decided in the affirmative. Soon after, rumours (originating with the cardinals, no doubt) that the pope was to resign began spreading throughout Italy. Because Celestine daily faced the hatred of his immediate subordinates, and because he dearly missed his quiet life of peace and contemplation in the mountains, he did not deny the rumours, and within a short time formally announced his intention to abdicate. The common people and lower clergy, who dearly loved him, were shocked and upset, and throngs of them surrounded the papal castle in Naples imploring him to stay. But Celestine had made up his mind, and resigned. His successor was none other than Benedetto Caetani, who won the election almost immediately. Caetani, now Boniface VIII, triumphantly marched to Rome with Celestine in tow. He officially annulled practically every decree every issued by his predecessor and formally dissolved the branch of Benedictine monks he founded. Most of Celestine’s acts were expunged from the official record books, and the man himself was forcibly imprisoned “for his own protection”. In reality, Boniface and the other cardinals were fearful that Catholics would not accept the regime change and would rally around Celestine. Eventually, Celestine managed to effect his escape from Rome, and, to the great joy of his fellow monks, appeared back at his mountain abode. Boniface was furious and declared him a fugitive. The 90-year-old Celestine attempted to flee across the sea, but he was captured and returned to Rome. There Boniface imprisoned him in a tiny cell high in a tower. After almost a year of mistreatment, the old man died, alone and unhappy. There are some interesting postscripts and asides to this story. One is that Celestine may, in fact, actually have been murdered by Boniface. If I recall correctly, Celestine’s remains were stolen from their resting place sometime in the last hundred years. When the bones were eventually recovered, it was noticed that there was a large hole in the skull, lending credence to an old rumour that his successor had him quietly dispatched with a nail in the head. However, a Turin scientist was appointed to study the skull in 2000, and he declared that the hole was made after death. Another interesting anecdote is that Celestine’s decision to resign was “helped” rather directly by Caetani himself, who hid behind an altar during one of Celestine’s private prayer sessions and impersonated the voice of God, saying, “Resign! Resign!”. Seems unlikely that anyone would be fooled by this sort of thing, but it makes for an amusing scene. 🙂 Yet another interesting tidbit is that while Celestine V was eventually canonized, Dante (in his Inferno) placed the former pope squarely in Hell for his abdication. I wonder whether he was writing before the canonization, or if his patron was one of Celestine’s enemies, or whether he just didn’t agree with the thought of a pope throwing in the towel. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/13 "2006-10-17T16:32:02Z")
Can a Cardinal vote for himself for Pope? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/14 "2006-10-17T17:11:28Z")
[QUOTE=HeyHomie] Can a Cardinal vote for himself for Pope? [/QUOTE] Since the balloting is secret, I don’t see why not? Unless it was 100% unanimous, no one would know for sure anyway. And, as others have pointed out, even if it is illegal, he will still have enough votes and the results cannot be overturned. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/15 "2006-10-17T18:10:40Z")
[QUOTE=FormerMarineGuy] So it seems that if a pope is elected, he can not really get out of it (probably short of leaving the Church). [/QUOTE] That doesn’t follow at all from the excerpt you quoted. Invalidation of an election is a different animal from an electee declining to accept. Of course the electee can decline to accept. If he couldn’t, why would they bother to _ask_ him if he accepts? The article that you linked says: > [@](#): > > On rare occasions people have turned down the papacy. When offered the papacy at the Viterbo conclave mentioned above, St. Philip Benizi fled and hid until another candidate was chosen. Likewise St. Charles Boremeo, one of the few cardinals to be canonized, turned down the papacy when it was offered to him. Again when Cardinal Giovanni Colombo, the 76-year old archbishop of Milan, began receiving votes during the October 1978 conclave, he made it clear that he would refuse the papacy if elected. But normally those approached accept. > [@HeyHomie](#): > > Can a Cardinal vote for himself for Pope? Yes and no. This is discussed in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=160163&highlight=conclave), although I can’t vouch for the accuracy of **tomasso** , a long-gone and somewhat crotchety guest. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/16 "2006-10-17T18:22:06Z")
[QUOTE=HeyHomie] Can a Cardinal vote for himself for Pope? [/QUOTE] That’s why you don’t want to have Cheney or Harriet Meyer head up the search committee. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2006, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/17 "2006-10-18T06:12:06Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] That’s why you don’t want to have Cheney or Harriet Meyer head up the search committee. [/QUOTE] Politically charged comments are not appreciated in GQ. Please refrain. Thanks. - **xash** General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2006, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/18 "2006-10-18T09:49:53Z")
[QUOTE=xash] Politically charged comments are not appreciated in GQ. Please refrain. Thanks. - **xash** General Questions Moderator [/QUOTE] Sorry, I was trying to be funny not political. Both of them headed up search committees and ended up selecting themselves (VP and SC Justice). But I can easily see how my post could quickly cause the thread to go south. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/papal-refusal/376670/19 "2006-10-19T07:56:27Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] Sorry, I was trying to be funny not political. Both of them headed up search committees and ended up selecting themselves (VP and SC Justice). [/QUOTE] Point taken. I didn’t realize that (I knew about Miers, didn’t know that about Cheney). My apologies. - **xash** General Questions Moderator