# Paper size question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 8, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598 "2020-12-08T21:05:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/1 "2020-12-08T21:05:23Z")
North American Letter size paper is 8 1/2" x 11", an “aspect ratio” of 22/17 or about 1.2941. Is there any other common standard size that is closer to 1/1, or squarer, than this? If there is, my Google-fu fails me; A4 for example is √2 or 1.414. Maybe some notepad size? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/2 "2020-12-08T21:08:43Z")
How about the three-inch square Post-It notes? ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/3 "2020-12-08T21:11:00Z")
Origami paper is square: > **[Origami paper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origami_paper)** > > Origami paper is used to fold origami, the art of paper folding. The only real requirement of the folding medium is that it must be able to hold a crease, but should ideally also be thinner than regular paper for convenience when multiple folds over the same small paper area are required (e.g. such as would be the case if creating an origami bird's "legs", "feet", and "beak"). > Kami, or koiy paper, is the cheapest paper made specifically for origami, and the most widely available. It was develope... > [@](#): > > Kami comes in several sizes, but standard sizes include 75 × 75 mm (about 3 × 3 inches), 6-inch squares and 10-inch squares. Brian ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/4 "2020-12-08T22:29:45Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > common standard size When I was younger, Quarto was common: 1.23, it was what we used at school. It’s not common anymore. Actually, school notebooks still come in a squarish size, but only for the really young kids (and sort of old people) – the schools switch to A4 notebooks when the kids are large enough to handle them. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/5 "2020-12-09T01:12:30Z")
I don’t have an authoritative list of broadsheet paper sizes, but Wikipedia has a couple of links claiming that “many U.S. newspapers have downsized to 12 in (305 mm) wide by 22 3⁄4 in (578 mm) long for a folded page.” That means that the unfolded page has a ratio of about 1.05. It’s common enough for art books to have square pages, so that both horizontal and vertical photographs leave an acceptable amount of white space. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/6 "2020-12-09T02:31:37Z")
I read somewhere long back that the most aesthetic rectangle is one which has the golden ratio and hence stationery tried to get close to it. > **[Golden ratio](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > In mathematics, two quantities are in the golden ratio if their ratio is the same as the ratio of their sum to the larger of the two quantities. Expressed algebraically, for quantities > > > > a > > > {\\displaystyle a} > > and > > > > b > > > {\\displaystyle b} > > with > > > > a > \> > b > \> > 0 > > > {\\displaystyle a\>b\>0} > > , > where the Greek l... ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/7 "2020-12-09T07:43:14Z")
Sometimes, but not always and not exactly: [http://ihl.enssib.fr/en/paper-and-watermarks-as-bibliographical-evidence/the-shape-of-paper](http://ihl.enssib.fr/en/paper-and-watermarks-as-bibliographical-evidence/the-shape-of-paper) > **[Canons of page construction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canons_of_page_construction)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > The canons of page construction are historical reconstructions, based on careful measurement of extant books and what is known of the mathematics and engineering methods of the time, of manuscript-framework methods that may have been used in Medieval- or Renaissance-era book design to divide a page into pleasing proportions. Since their popularization in the 20th century, these canons have influenced modern-day book design in the ways that page pr... [http://ihl.enssib.fr/sites/ihl.enssib.fr/files/J.Lane\_graph.jpg](http://ihl.enssib.fr/sites/ihl.enssib.fr/files/J.Lane_graph.jpg) Maybe it is fairer to say there is a band between roughly √2 and roughly golden. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/8 "2020-12-09T09:29:42Z")
The √2 ratio has a reason: if you cut the sheet in half, the ratio is mantained. Thus the ratio of the two sides of A4 is the same as for A5. If, to take an extreme example, you had the ratio 1:2 and cut the sheet in half, you get the ratio 1:1, when you cut that again in half you get 1:2 again. √2 avoids this oscillation and is thus practical for paper producers. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/9 "2020-12-09T10:27:57Z")
Yes, that is the basic logic of the “A” line of sheet sizes. It starts with A0, which is 841 × 1189 millimetres and has a surface area of one square metre. With each increment of the “A” number, the size is halved (so A1 is half the size of A0, A2 is half of that again, etc). This neat feature is only possible because of the √2 ratio. It’s also reasonably close to the golden ratio, but that was not the primary concern when the system was designed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/10 "2020-12-09T11:00:52Z")
It’s also the logic of the “B” series, except there it’s around having a meter side and fractions of that (at least in the common sizes) . The “C” series is just weird (but perfect for envelopes) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/11 "2020-12-09T13:21:07Z")
“A”, “B”, and “C” (as well as D, E, F, G…) papers all have the same shape. It’s just different sizes. C is the mean of A and B. If you want sheets closer to the golden ratio, it’s not impossible to get some American or Japanese sizes. Also IME every office and of course print shop has a guillotine… ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2024, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/12 "2024-11-12T19:42:30Z")
UPDATE: Just today I received a mailing that made me go “wait a minute– am I imagining it or is this larger than usual?”. I measured it and sure enough it wasn’t letter size, it was 9.5x12". A quick bit of Googling reveals that there is a paper size called North American ARCH (short for Architect), the smallest of which is ARCH A at 9.5x12". So OP answered; yes there is an actually standard size squarer than Letter, aspect ratio of approximately 1.263 compared to Letter 1.294 ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2024, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/13 "2024-11-12T20:24:22Z")
ARCH A is listed online as 9" x 12", for a ratio of 1.333. Where are you seeing 9.5"? > **[Paper Sizes](https://papersizes.io/us/arch-a)** > > A comprehensive resource listing the international standards for paper sizes, dimensions and formats. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2024, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/14 "2024-11-12T21:28:30Z")
Urgh, I meant 9¼, not 9½. Which throws it all the paper wastebasket. And double-checking you’re right, my own sources says that ARCH A is 9x12". And yet the papers I was sent are definitely wider than 9". The plot (and the paper?) thickens… ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2024, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/15 "2024-11-13T00:39:40Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > So OP answered; yes there is an actually standard size squarer than Letter, aspect ratio of approximately 1.263 compared to Letter 1.294 If you consider North American paper sizes like ARCH and Letter “standard”, then Japanese AB is no less standard and is squarer than Letter. ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2024, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/16 "2024-11-13T13:18:05Z")
We can’t talk about paper sizes and shapes without this nice little video explaining where the “A” type papers come from, but also existentialism of the entire universe [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUF5esTscZI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUF5esTscZI) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2024, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/17 "2024-11-13T16:05:32Z")
The video keeps calling the standard “metric” even though it only has to do with the Metric system in that the start of the standard is a page of one square meter in area. The real magic of the standard is it’s use of the 1:√2:2 ratio. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2024, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-size-question/927598/18 "2024-11-13T17:43:42Z")
There are real standard standards though, namely mainly ISO 269 in this case, which defines sizes A and B. They all have the same aspect ratio. You never mentioned what you are trying to do, but there are various square notebooks available > **[JetPens.com - Rhodia Reverse Book - 8.3](https://www.jetpens.com/Rhodia-Reverse-Book-8.3-x-8.3-Graph-Orange/pd/10364)** > > Use this versatile Rhodia Reverse Book any which way you want—have the spiral binding off to the side or up top. With its square dimensions, this notebook is easily used either way. The notebook is durable, with a double-spiral wire binding and...