# Paper vs. coin: American politics are overly commercialized **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 23, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582 "2012-03-23T05:35:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/41 "2012-03-24T23:03:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Who cares what people prefer? We know better than they what’s good for them! It’s not as if the government wants to tell you whether or how to worship, how to vote, what to name your dog, or what books to read. Freedom in those matters are among the things embodied in the word “liberty”. This is what we should mean when we speak of honoring the will of the people and of the protection of our rights. But on our money? Liberty is just a word. When it takes fifty of the highest denominated coin to buy a cheap greasy dinner for two people, it’s time for a currency overhaul, including the replacement of $1 bills with coins. We shouldn’t even be giving this issue any more notice than we would to what color the nearest regional Federal Reserve Bank building should be painted. Coins and notes are just a tool to facilitate commerce; nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/42 "2012-03-24T23:14:20Z")
nm Should have read the whole thread first. Others have shown that **Jamaika** is wrong, so I don’t need to pile on. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/43 "2012-03-25T03:18:53Z")
> [@Paintcharge](#): > > Well Americans have rejected the dollar coins that have been introduced over the years because the coins that have come out are stupid. There was the much too large , old one, and then the Susan B Anthony, Sacajawea, and presidential ones that were the same size, by feel in the pocket, as a quarter. Come up with something along the lines of an [Italian 1000 lire](http://en.ucoin.net/users/coin/italy_1000_italian_lire_1997/?ucid=51664), and it might work. So what makes that so distinctive in the pocket? It’s nearly the exact same size as a dollar coin, and neither the bimetallic composition nor the casting appear to give any palpable features. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/44 "2012-03-25T04:22:54Z")
If I was designing a dollar coin, I would either go very noticeably thicker (like a pound coin) or non-circular (like a Canadian dollar, but probably not as non-round as a 50p). But the one we have is fine, really. It’s not really as close in size to the quarter as some people seem to think. The diameter of the quarter is 92% of the diameter of the dollar coin. That sounds close, but the dime has 94% of the diameter of the penny, and the biggest difference between coins when you line them up by size is between the nickel and quarter, with the nickel still having 87% of the quarter’s diameter. Surface area is a little more skewed, but it’s still pretty close. 76% for the nickel-quarter pair at the bottom, 84% for quarters and dollars, and 88% for pennies and dimes. Between all of that and the fact that the dollar coin is nearly 2.5 grams heavier and 0.25 mm thicker with a smooth or nearly-smooth edge, I’m not really sure how people who have no trouble with our current coins are confusing them for quarters. ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/45 "2012-03-25T05:27:31Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I don’t think the “pocketful of change” argument stands up. Experience in other countries seems to show that coins can usefully cover a range of values from 1 to about 100, where 1 is the least valuable useful coin. Over time, lower denomination coins are withdrawn and higher denominations are introduced. In the US, the ratio is absurdly low at 25 (or maybe even less than that). Get rid of the useless 1c coin, that would counteract any increase in pocket change due to a dollar coin. I respectfully disagree with this argument. Here in the US, I rarely have any change in my pocket because a pocketful of change is both A) annoying and B) not worth much, so I can just chuck it in my cup holder in my car or in a dish on my desk, etc. Whenever I travel in Europe or other countries with “dollar” coins I always end up with a huge, heavy, annoying pocket full of change, but I can’t just empty my pockets because _that’s all my spending money._ ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/46 "2012-03-25T06:01:36Z")
In the US you have in general circulation the same coins today that you had in 1965. [According to this graph](http://observationsandnotes.blogspot.com/2011/04/100-year-declining-value-of-us-dollar.html) the spending power of the dollar has declined by about 80% since e.g. 1970 - but the denominations haven’t changed. Most countries have an upper and lower ‘spending unit’ value for coins (e.g. how many are required to purchase commodities like candy bars and Big Macs). It’s the usual practice, as money inevitably inflates over time, for the lower end of the coinage to be phased out and the upper value to be replaced with something that has a similar spending unit value as when the prior upper limit was minted. For example, as part of decimalisation the UK got the 50p piece in 1969 and lost the 10-shilling note in 1970, then lost the £1 note and gained the £1 coin in the 1980s and dropped the 1/2p coin around the same time - then gained the £2 coin in the 90s. I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before we get a £5 coin as standard (rather than commemorative) and lose the penny. In the US the highest value coin in general circulation is worth less than the UK’s 20p. Even in the developing economy of Thailand they have 10 baht coins (32c) and the baht has a lot higher purchasing power in its local context. So in other words the “it means I don’t have to carry change” argument, while not objectively right or wrong, must be a relatively new one and clearly wasn’t the original plan. Back in 1970 you would have been carrying roughly the same amount of change as we do now. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/47 "2012-03-25T13:05:30Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > nm > > Should have read the whole thread first. Others have shown that **Jamaika** is wrong, so I don’t need to pile on. Perhaps we are reading different threads? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/48 "2012-03-25T15:48:18Z")
**jjimm** ’s post does bring up one important psychological block among the American public vis-a-vis coin vs. paper: the notion that base-metal coins are by definition “small change”, that the switch to notes marks a threshold of value for “real money”, and that switching to dollar coins and no pennies would mean acceptance that the dollar’s worth is lessenned (and that it would trigger price inflation at the street level, but that’s a chicken-or-egg argument really). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/49 "2012-03-25T20:46:12Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > **jjimm** ’s post does bring up one important psychological block among the American public vis-a-vis coin vs. paper: the notion that base-metal coins are by definition “small change”, that the switch to notes marks a threshold of value for “real money”, and that switching to dollar coins and no pennies would mean acceptance that the dollar’s worth is lessenned (and that it would trigger price inflation at the street level, but that’s a chicken-or-egg argument really). To continue this argument: although it would be a logical next step, hardly anybody in this country seems to mind the fact that the government spends billions of dollars every year manufacturing this “small change” / “not quite real money”, and it’s the end consumer who has to either accept the time, trouble, and expense of counting and exchanging it, or accept the loss incurred when they “save” it by allowing it to accumulate. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/50 "2012-03-25T23:57:50Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > **jjimm** ’s post does bring up one important psychological block among the American public vis-a-vis coin vs. paper: the notion that base-metal coins are by definition “small change”, that the switch to notes marks a threshold of value for “real money”, and that switching to dollar coins and no pennies would mean acceptance that the dollar’s worth is lessenned (and that it would trigger price inflation at the street level, but that’s a chicken-or-egg argument really). Exactly. Bills are money that you use to purchase things. Coins are only used to balance out transactions. It’s been this way for so long that people have grown up without ever thinking you could buy anything with a coin. When you make a purchase, it’s too much trouble to access two different sources of currency, your wallet and your pocket/change purse. So, you access the one currency type that you must use, the bills, since they are the only currency valuable enough to buy something with. In return, you get bills and coins, and stuff the coins in your pocket, where they weigh you down until you get home and put them in storage. If we had appropriately valued currency, people would regularly use their coins, because they would represent real value, you’re not going to leave a $5 coin in your pocket when you buy a coffee, and pull out a $20 bill instead. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/51 "2012-03-26T01:06:57Z")
It may have been on this very message board, but I do remember someone somewhere making (what they believed to be) a serious argument against dollar coins because strippers could then no longer get tips. So it’s divested interests too. > [@Terr](#): > > I would hate dollar coins. Having 6-7 single dollar bills in my wallet is nothing. Having 6-7 huge coins in there would bulk it up way too much. You carry coins in your wallet? But the real problem here is no $2 (or 2 cent) currency of either type. And who said they’d be huge? > [@Loach](#): > > I am an American who has spent some years in Europe. I can’t stand having a pocket full of change all the time. I would hate getting rid of the paper dollar. Every time I go to the US I end up with a pocket full of pennies (which you REALLY need to get rid of) and a wallet full of $1 notes. Honestly people, you are making up objections that simply would not be a problem if it were done properly. Every comparable country that has done it, like the UK and Australia, has had simply no problem whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/52 "2012-03-26T01:15:00Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Honestly people, you are making up objections that simply would not be a problem if it were done properly. Every comparable country that has done it, like the UK and Australia, has had simply no problem whatsoever. Even Canada has adopted $1 and $2 coins, calling them loonies and toonies, without the collapse of Canadian civilisation. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/53 "2012-03-26T01:16:32Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Even Canada has adopted $1 and $2 coins, calling them loonies and toonies, without the collapse of Canadian civilisation. That which has never existed cannot collapse, my friend 😉 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/54 "2012-03-26T01:17:09Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Exactly. Bills are money that you use to purchase things. Coins are only used to balance out transactions. It’s been this way for so long that people have grown up without ever thinking you could buy anything with a coin. I’m tired of the implication that there must be some explanation behind a preference of bills over coins. Listen, I’ve lived in places with the equivalent of dollar and two dollar coins. They are a pain in the ass. I like bills better, and think having coins in my pocket is annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/55 "2012-03-26T02:26:57Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If we had appropriately valued currency, people would regularly use their coins, because they would represent real value, you’re not going to leave a $5 coin in your pocket when you buy a coffee, and pull out a $20 bill instead. Yet, **Loach** ’s statement suggests that this is what many Americans continue to do even when they spend time abroad with currency systems that are less paper-centric. IMO it really comes down to a disagreement on what the word “money”, with regard to physical cash, is supposed to denote. Historically, any money did not circulate in such small denominations as to be virtually meaningless in terms of anything you might buy with it. I’ve discussed this in a numerous blogs and other forums, so forgive me if I’ve already mentioned the “pack-of-gum standard” on here. In 1965 you could buy a five-stick pack of gum for five cents, which obviously meant that one cent, the lowest denomination of coin, could be said to represent one stick of gum, or one fifth of the amount of gum contained in that package. To a kid, a stick of gum not chewed was a penny saved, and a stick of gum chewed was a penny spent. Now gum costs about $1.50 or more, and although the package is bigger these days, the value of one cent as represented in that product would be a fragment of gum smaller than your pinkie fingernail. The penny still has a _nominal_ value, but for practical purposes the bottom has fallen out, especially now when, against all common sense, the government has to continue minting pennies and nickels at over twice their own cost. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/56 "2012-03-26T02:51:38Z")
Anecdote: In the decade of the 2000s, I stopped picking pennies off the ground because it wasn’t worth it in terms of time or weighing myself down. Now, I have started picking them back up again, even when it is inconvenient for me. Because I am picking up litter. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/57 "2012-03-26T09:26:07Z")
Or they could get the best of both worlds and switch to tear-resistant polymer like Australia and Canada did. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/58 "2012-03-26T09:52:03Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m tired of the implication that there must be some explanation behind a preference of bills over coins. Listen, I’ve lived in places with the equivalent of dollar and two dollar coins. They are a pain in the ass. I like bills better, and think having coins in my pocket is annoying. Coins aren’t going away, no matter how much you dislike them. My question to you is, would you rather have a pocket full of worthless coins, that you have to store at home until you collect enough to bother exchanging, or a pocket full of valuable coins that you don’t have to store at home, and can actually use for something\* during your day? I will be with you regarding one thing, we don’t need more coins, we need to add high value coins and ditch our worthless coins. \*Something besides trying to avoid getting more coins as change. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/59 "2012-03-26T13:19:42Z")
About 60 years ago, coins were still real money in the US; 70 cent lunches, 10 cent bus fares, 20 cent/gallon gasoline, 50 cent movie tickets, 25 cent packs of cigarettes. Today, coins have been reduced to change. $1 and $5 coins would take us back to a time when coins were actually worth something; a period that lasted for over 2,000 years, ending only in the 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582/60 "2012-03-26T13:21:03Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Or they could get the best of both worlds and switch to tear-resistant polymer like Australia and Canada did. That won’t happen as long as Chase Paper still has friends on Capitol Hill. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paper-vs-coin-american-politics-are-overly-commercialized/616582.md?page=4)