# Parading victims of tragedy out to call for mob justice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703 "2013-01-29T13:08:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/1 "2013-01-29T13:08:57Z")
I hate the Oprahfication of politics where issues that need to be discussed rationally are reduced to a contest to see who can emote the hardest. Eventually elections will be replaced with scales where we weigh the volume of tears from each side and give victory to the one who fills the bigger beaker. You lost your husband on 9/11? That sucks. I can’t imagine how painful that was for you. But it doesn’t change the fact that we can’t racially profile Arabs or start oppressing Muslims in this country. It doesn’t make the Iraq war a good idea. It damn sure doesn’t justify the policy of drone-bombing children in Pakistan. If you support these things, you’re wrong, and you’ve lost my sympathy for what happened. You’re now a political hack spreading bigotry and trying to use the death of your relative as a shield against criticism for it. You’re Gabrielle Giffords? You’re a Newtown parent? My condolences. No one deserves what happened to you. But if you get up in front of a Congressional hearing and start denouncing my Constitutional rights, you’re still wrong. You don’t get to claim how “offended” you are by [people disagreeing with you](http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Newtown-dad-to-lawmakers-Change-gun-laws-4228992.php#photo-4098381). You have no special insight into crime statistics or legal scholarship. The only thing you know better than me is grief, and that’s not a basis for law. Your pain is not an argument. Stop acting surprised at the concept of people disagreeing with your desire to lash out at all gun owners for what happened. Both parties are guilty of trying to replace thought with emotion. W and Obama are perhaps the two most anti-rational Presidents we’ve ever had. W wanted to “create our own reality” and “shoot from the gut” on everything. Obama wants us to be touchy-feely and inspired and hopeful, and make laws based on who “has a sad.” This is the end result–a constant freakshow of widows and grieving parents demanding collective vengeance against group bogeymen, whether it’s Muslims for 9/11 or gays for hurricanes or gun owners for Newtown. I refuse to be shouted down for disagreeing with someone who is advocating something that is wrong with their tears. If you can’t separate your personal feelings from what is moral and legal, you have no place in the debate. Politicians need to stop hiding behind these human shields. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/2 "2013-01-29T13:28:59Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > But if you get up in front of a Congressional hearing and start denouncing my Constitutional rights, you’re still wrong. Your “rights” have limitations. [QUOTE=Justice Scalia] the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. [/QUOTE] I don’t see anything wrong with bringing the human impact of unfettered gun “rights” into Congressional hearings. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/3 "2013-01-29T14:14:57Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I hate the Oprahfication of politics where issues that need to be discussed rationally are reduced to a contest to see who can emote the hardest. Eventually elections will be replaced with scales where we weigh the volume of tears from each side and give victory to the one who fills the bigger beaker. Oprahfication? This is hardly a recent development, see [waving the bloody shirt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waving_the_bloody_shirt). ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/4 "2013-01-29T15:39:05Z")
It is disheartening. Sometimes I just want to weld the door to my underground bunker shut, gather all my children around me and hug their barrels close to my chest. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/5 "2013-01-29T15:46:03Z")
This stuff can become extremely manipulative and it can be used for misleading ends, but it’s also reflects human nature and it’s a legitimate part of politics: people have a right to lobby for laws based on their experiences, and people like to be able to put a face on an issue and hear about what is happening to individuals instead of just attempting to understand it in the abstract. It’s just easier for us to look at things that way. And yes, this far predates Oprah. It’s also very misleading to call an effort to change a law “mob justice,” which connotes vigilante punishment of people who are perceived to be guilty. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/6 "2013-01-29T15:52:22Z")
> [@](#): > > It damn sure doesn’t justify the policy of drone-bombing children in Pakistan. No amount of pain or frustration justifies drone-bombing children. That’s why we don’t do it. We perform airstrikes on military targets as a rational and necessary step to fighting the Taliban. They deliberately choose to surround themselves with noncombatants (a war crime, mind you) because they want to provoke civilian casualties as a way to discredit their opponents. Obviously, you fell for it. I would also turn your argument back on you: If your house got blown up because you were sheltering the Taliban, sorry. War sucks. But your misfortune is not an argument for the rest of us to give up the war, surrender to demands of our enemies, and allow them to do as they please without consequence. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/7 "2013-01-29T16:00:17Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > No amount of pain or frustration justifies drone-bombing children. That’s why we don’t do it. We perform airstrikes on military targets as a rational and necessary step to fighting the Taliban. They deliberately choose to surround themselves with noncombatants (a war crime, mind you) because they want to provoke civilian casualties as a way to discredit their opponents. > > Obviously, you fell for it. > > I would also turn your argument back on you: If your house got blown up because you were sheltering the Taliban, sorry. War sucks. But your misfortune is not an argument for the rest of us to give up the war, surrender to demands of our enemies, and allow them to do as they please without consequence. To obtain more fair-minded independent analysis of US wartime responsibilities and culpability, be sure to check out [www.foxnews.com](http://www.foxnews.com), [www.whitehouse.gov](http://www.whitehouse.gov) and [www.defense.gov](http://www.defense.gov)! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/8 "2013-01-29T16:03:39Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > No amount of pain or frustration justifies drone-bombing children. That’s why we don’t do it. We perform airstrikes on military targets as a rational and necessary step to fighting the Taliban. They deliberately choose to surround themselves with noncombatants (a war crime, mind you) because they want to provoke civilian casualties as a way to discredit their opponents. > > Obviously, you fell for it. > > I would also turn your argument back on you: If your house got blown up because you were sheltering the Taliban, sorry. War sucks. But your misfortune is not an argument for the rest of us to give up the war, surrender to demands of our enemies, and allow them to do as they please without consequence. Not the same. In the first scenario the Taliban surround themselves with noncombatants who probably have no say in the matter(and the children _certainly_ have no say). In the second scenario you propose the the noncombatant is _purposfully_ sheltering the Talaban and should be looked upon as a cohort. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/9 "2013-01-29T16:05:39Z")
Or to put it another way: You’re some Pakistani kid? You’re an Afghan farmer? My condolences. No one deserves what happened to you. But if you get up in front of the Pakistani media and start denouncing America, you’re still wrong. You don’t get to claim how “offended” you are by people disagreeing with your religion. You have no special insight into the Geneva Conventions, or the requirements of the military targeting process. The only thing you know better than me is grief, and that’s not a basis for military planning. Your pain is not an argument. Stop acting surprised at the concept of people disagreeing with your desire to lash out at all Americans for what happened. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/10 "2013-01-29T16:09:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not the same. > In the first scenario the Taliban surround themselves with noncombatants who probably have no say in the matter(and the children _certainly_ have no say). > In the second scenario you propose the the noncombatant is _purposfully_ sheltering the Talaban and should be looked upon as a cohort. There is very little difference. The Taliban and AQ routinely shelter at the homes of non-combatants specifically because they are attempting to provoke these kinds of incidents. _They often do not give the home-owners a choice in the matter_. It is obviously a tragedy, either way, but their use of human shields does not require us to pack up and go home. When I wrote that they were “sheltering the Taliban” I did not specify the motive. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/11 "2013-01-29T16:23:36Z")
This is an object lesson in why posters shouldn’t sneak _unambiguously controversial_, unrelated side-swipes into their OPs. You could see the drone-related derailment from a hundred feet away. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/12 "2013-01-29T16:24:58Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > There is very little difference. The Taliban and AQ routinely shelter at the homes of non-combatants specifically because they are attempting to provoke these kinds of incidents. _They often do not give the home-owners a choice in the matter_. It is obviously a tragedy, either way, but their use of human shields does not require us to pack up and go home. When I wrote that they were “sheltering the Taliban” I did not specify the motive. There is a world of difference between “cohort” and “captive”. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/13 "2013-01-29T16:28:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There is a world of difference between “cohort” and “captive”. The Geneva Conventions doesn’t make a distinction, since it is impossible for an outside observer to ascertain the motive of the non-combatant. This is why disguising yourself as a non-combatant or surrounding yourself with non-combatants is a war crime. Unfortunately, the media doesn’t seem to care about this. The ambiguity of their motives is also why we cannot allow ourselves to be taken advantage of by people who want to manipulate the targeting process by tugging at our heart strings. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/14 "2013-01-29T16:44:45Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > The Geneva Conventions doesn’t make a distinction, since it is impossible for an outside observer to ascertain the motive of the non-combatant. This is why disguising yourself as a non-combatant or surrounding yourself with non-combatants is a war crime. Unfortunately, the media doesn’t seem to care about this. > > The ambiguity of their motives is also why we cannot allow ourselves to be taken advantage of by people who want to manipulate the targeting process by tugging at our heart strings. The strings of our heart are sometimes all that hold us back from becoming no better than those we fight. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/15 "2013-01-29T16:47:08Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > This is an object lesson in why posters shouldn’t sneak _unambiguously controversial_, unrelated side-swipes into their OPs. You could see the drone-related derailment from a hundred feet away. Only from the Goebbels and Rosenbergs of today who want to use horseshit assertions to peddle defenses of indiscriminate murder. People who are anchored in reality can look at the overall argument. And since one of the usual defenses of the drone horrors is “but we have to KEEP PEOPLE SAFE because NINE ELEVEN, why are you such a terrorist-lover”, never with any explanation of what threat anyone in Pakistan poses to the U.S. or exactly how a bomb victim who was born in 2007 and died in 2012 relates to crimes perpetrated in 2001, it’s one of the most relevant examples I could use. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/16 "2013-01-29T16:51:01Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Or to put it another way: > > You’re some Pakistani kid? You’re an Afghan farmer? My condolences. No one deserves what happened to you. But if you get up in front of the Pakistani media and start denouncing America, you’re still wrong. You don’t get to claim how “offended” you are by people disagreeing with your religion. You have no special insight into the Geneva Conventions, or the requirements of the military targeting process. The only thing you know better than me is grief, and that’s not a basis for military planning. Your pain is not an argument. Stop acting surprised at the concept of people disagreeing with your desire to lash out at all Americans for what happened. If I was in their shoes I’d be plenty pissed, too. Just because the Taliban uses them for human shields doesn’t mean the US has carte blanche to shoot through them to get to the bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/17 "2013-01-29T16:52:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Only from the Goebbels and Rosenbergs of today who want to use horseshit assertions to peddle defenses of indiscriminate murder. You appear impervious to the idea that the noncombatants who are killed are not the targets of the attack. Further, your classification of a military airstrike as an act of “murder” makes it clear that you are not able to consider these problems in any sort of objective way. Nobody argues that this is a tragedy, but nobody deliberately attempts to kill non-combatants and in fact we go to great lengths to avoid it. You are a hypocrite and a victim of the very strategem you are arguing against. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/18 "2013-01-29T16:55:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Only from the Goebbels and Rosenbergs of today BTW, does SD have a rule about Godwin’s Law? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/19 "2013-01-29T16:56:06Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Only from the Goebbels and Rosenbergs of today who want to use horseshit assertions to peddle defenses of indiscriminate murder. People who are anchored in reality can look at the overall argument. > [@solosam](#): > > You are a hypocrite and a victim of the very strategem you are arguing against. Take it to the Pit, both of you. And this is true: > [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > This is an object lesson in why posters shouldn’t sneak _unambiguously controversial_, unrelated side-swipes into their OPs. You could see the drone-related derailment from a hundred feet away. To that end, let’s return to the general topic of “parading victims of tragedy” rather than arguing about the details of drone bombing or gun legislation. That’s going on in other threads anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703/20 "2013-01-29T16:58:25Z")
Which works better in the long run-parading the sad and suffering, or parading the upset and angry? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parading-victims-of-tragedy-out-to-call-for-mob-justice/648703.md?page=2)