# Paranoia Everywhere in School Systems **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2000, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016 "2000-08-03T18:36:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sneevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@Sneevil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sneevil)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/41 "2000-08-06T22:09:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Bring the power of schooling back to a local level, but do not return to a school board system. > > This I agree with. The Kansas situation has illustrated some of the flaws of the popularly elected school board system. So you don’t like ‘majority rule’ or a ‘representative system’? You don’t like people to choose how they will be governed? What do you suggest as an alternative? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/42 "2000-08-06T22:15:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beakerxf \* > \*\*[li]Stop relying on standardized tests[/li] > Absolutely. The current system rewards the schools with extra funding for having higher standardized scores. With money on the line, why would any school keep band, drama, art, wood shop, auto shop, etc if these programs can not contribute to the standardized tests. In fact, it would be in a schools best interest to eliminate these programs and implement more classes that can contribute to standardized test scores. That may be in the school’s best interest, but it’s not in the student’s. > > Also, the funding system is too easily manipulated. One Houston school was caught doctoring tests. > > \*\* Here in Minnesota, NCS the company that has the contract for grading the state’s standardized tests, misgraded the state’s math test. Something like 700+ kids were denied the right to graduate because of this error. Others were sent to summer school so they could pass this test. Except they’d already passed it; their score was wrong. NCS is paying each student who didn’t get to graduate $1000. I think the humiliation of not being able to graduate with your class is worth a hell of a lot more than 1 grand. Robin ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/43 "2000-08-06T22:20:36Z")
> [@](#): > > So you don’t like ‘majority rule’ or a ‘representative system’? You don’t like people to choose how they will be governed? > > What do you suggest as an alternative? Sneevil, you’re missing the point. Democratic control is by definition part of a public school system, obviously. At a higher level/funding level. But I don’t want a bureaucrat making pedagogical decisions about schools any more than I want a bureaucrat making _medical_ decisions about hospitals. ---
**Author:** ![Sneevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@Sneevil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sneevil)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/44 "2000-08-06T22:26:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Sneevil, you’re missing the point. Democratic control is by definition part of a public school system, obviously. At a higher level/funding level. But I don’t want a bureaucrat making pedagogical decisions about schools any more than I want a bureaucrat making medical decisions about hospitals matt, I think **you’re** missing the point. If the local board in Kansas was elected by it’s constituency (local people), and decide to set the agenda for the local schools, what’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/45 "2000-08-06T22:52:52Z")
The problem? The problem is that they made a choice that will hurt the education of the students. C’mon now, how many people really are drastically involved in school board elefctions? Unless the school board does something icredibly stupid, nobody ever notices them. Maybe that’s not the wway it should be, but that the way politics in America are. There are people on the school board who have no idea how education should be run. Let’s rephrase matt\_mcl’s comment: how would you like a popularly elected board–many of whom are not now, and have never been, doctors–making your medical decisions? Same thing applies here–many of the people on school boards have no business there, but they would probably have to kill somebody to get removed. If you want a school board that’s worthwhile, it should be made up of elected teachers and parents (of course teachers have too much work without administering, but say that while serving they get as reduction in classes and duties. Same with parents, but you couldn’t help that). ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/46 "2000-08-06T23:00:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sneevil \* > \*\*So you don’t like ‘majority rule’ or a ‘representative system’? You don’t like people to choose how they will be governed? > > What do you suggest as an alternative? \*\* I like the current administrative system just fine. They are people who are in the system, hired on their merit, experience, etc. I pointed out the Kansas school district as an example. Last year they decide that the teaching of evolution is optional. This year a new board is elected that promise to reverse that decison. So what we have is a flip-flopping of a school system based on the personal opinion of the masses. However, if there are studies out there that prove that a school board works better than the administrative sytem, then by all means, put it in place. ---
**Author:** ![Sneevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@Sneevil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sneevil)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/47 "2000-08-06T23:04:32Z")
> [@](#): > > The problem? The problem is that they made a choice that will hurt the education of the students. C’mon now, how many people really are drastically involved in school board elefctions? Unless the school board does something icredibly stupid, nobody ever notices them. Maybe that’s not the wway it should be, but that the way politics in America are. There are people on the school board who have no idea how education should be run Ya know, at first I was gonna say something sarcastic like:" You’re right, it won’d work. Let’s just all throw up our hands and turn everything over to the politbureau in D.C." or something to that effect. Instead, I’ll ask again: What do you suggest as an alternative to local school boards? ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/48 "2000-08-06T23:05:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msrobyn \* > > Here in Minnesota, NCS the company that has the contract for grading the state’s standardized tests, misgraded the state’s math test. Something like 700+ kids were denied the right to graduate because of this error. Others were sent to summer school so they could pass this test. Except they’d already passed it; their score was wrong. NCS is paying each student who didn’t get to graduate $1000. I think the humiliation of not being able to graduate with your class is worth a hell of a lot more than 1 grand. > > Robin \*\* I think it goes beyond mere humiliation. Some of those students have missed the window of opportunity to get into certain colleges. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/49 "2000-08-06T23:10:29Z")
Sneevili, I suggest you go actually read the whole of my last post. You’ll find I’ve already said it. ---
**Author:** ![Sneevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@Sneevil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sneevil)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/50 "2000-08-06T23:11:22Z")
> [@](#): > > I like the current administrative system just fine. They are people who are in the system, hired on their merit, experience, etc Well, if it’s working so well, what is everyone crabbing about, hmmm? As I pointed out above (I know you’re waay to smart to waste time reading _my_ posts), the administrative system is the main problem. It does nothing more than obfuscate and suck up public funds at a dizzying rate. BTW, did you know that a Phd Ed. degree is one of the easiest to obtain? Yet it pay, **big time**. WTF justifies salaries in excess of 100k for even tiny rural school districts, lucrative fringes, and contracts with golden parachute provisions for these egomaniacal morons? ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/51 "2000-08-06T23:46:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sneevil \* > \*\* > > Well, if it’s [the administrative system] working so well, what is everyone crabbing about, hmmm? > \*\* As I said before, standardized tests determining funding, class size, etc. I prefer the idea of teachers and former teachers running the system than elected politicians. > [@](#): > > \*\* > As I pointed out above (I know you’re waay to smart to waste time reading _my_ posts), \*\* In another thread, didn’t we have a little exchange about your habit of reading your biases into other people’s posts? Just because I disagree with you, doesn’t mean I haven’t read your arguments. Everytime we have had an exchange, I have been more than civil with you, I’d appreciate the same. > [@](#): > > \*\* > the administrative system is the main problem. It does nothing more than obfuscate and suck up public funds at a dizzying rate. BTW, did you know that a Phd Ed. degree is one of the easiest to obtain? Yet it pay, **big time**. WTF justifies salaries in excess of 100k for even tiny rural school districts, lucrative fringes, and contracts with golden parachute provisions for these egomaniacal morons? \*\* Yes, I recall you stating this earlier, but it’s clearly your opinion. My opinion is the exact opposite. We are at an impasse until either you or I provide evidence to back up our assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/52 "2000-08-07T00:04:23Z")
Interesting topic. Someone pointed out earlier that some parents send their kids to school and expect the school to raise them. I have the opposite complaint. When my son gets home from school (he was in 3rd grade last year) he’s spent the day doing “multi-cultural” art projects, having assemblies on different ways of living (I read his history text last year; I found little history. One paragraph on the Pilgrims, two chapters on slave trading in the 1700’s, nothing about the Revolution, and a bunch of chapters about some freaky tribe somewhere in South America.), singing songs (the non-denominational Christmas concert struck me as slightly absurd, but then, the kids don’t have Christmas break anymore; it’s “winter break”), basically spending the day doing a bunch of feel-good PC bullshit designed to make him think and act like everyone else. So when he gets home, he’s got 2-3 hours worth of math, reading, spelling, and science homework he’s got to get done, and he’s usually very unsure about how to do it, because they’ve spent the whole day learning “values”. Silly me; I thought it was MY job to teach him the values, and THEIRS to teach him the three R’s! IMHO, the diversity training can wait until he’s learned to read, write, and do basic math. I don’t send my kid to school hoping they’ll raise him for me; I want them to STOP trying to raise him and let ME do it. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/53 "2000-08-07T00:31:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sneevil \* > \*\*Public schools (for whatever reason) do not educate. They do not get results. High school students graduate with diplomas they can’t even READ fer cryin’ out loud. > > How about starting at the top and eliminating the worst parasites on the educational system-politicians, both federal and state. Then move right on in, and hack out SUPERINTENDENTS. These clowns are paid upwards of $100k per year(not including their support staff structure and golden parachute options)to do nothing but OBFUSCATE. Get rid of 'em. Return education to the control of the local school boards and the parents. > > That would be a start. \*\* You know, Sneevil, it’s a good thing my parents didn’t listen to you. My younger sisters both went (and go) to public high school and have found it one of the best experiences of their lives. My mother went to public high school and apparently with her 1500 SAT score and double major in Greek and religion . . . so I’ll thank you to keep those kind of opinions to yourself. As for returning the school to the control of parents and the school board . . . where do you think some of these kids get the ideas that violence is okay and nonconformity is bad? The superintendants and all those people are some of the ones who think wearing a trenchcoat (or some of the other actions described in this thread) lead to violence. They were some of the people pointing the finger at those trenchcoats and games such as “Doom” and “Quake,” instead of, in my opinion, the larger (and existent) problem of athletes being stratified as heroes and those who dare to go across the grain bullied and punished sometimes to their deaths. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/54 "2000-08-07T00:32:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beakerxf \* > \*\*I think it goes beyond mere humiliation. Some of those students have missed the window of opportunity to get into certain colleges. > \*\* I haven’t read of those kids, but I know you’re right. I wonder if NCS or the Minnesota Department of Children, Families and Learning is gonna go to bat for them so they can go to those colleges. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/55 "2000-08-07T01:09:50Z")
My history professor, who’s also my advisor, was telling us about high school seniors who know who Snoop Doggy Dog is, yet they don’t know who the hell Winston Churchill was, or why he was so important. THAT is scary. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/56 "2000-08-07T03:38:04Z")
i’m still pissed that i had to take summer school to graduate because i failed a on-level math class, but a classmate of mine was stuck into lower-level classes and managed to graduate (on time) without learning to read. i thought the lower level classes were supposed to help the slower kids keep up, not let them coast by without learning anything. ---
**Author:** ![Frannie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Frannie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frannie)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/57 "2000-08-07T04:15:51Z")
We must celebrate diversity – and teach about it (religious, ethnic, sexual – you name it). We must help our students say, “No” to drugs – and hand our students over to the DARE officer for an hour a week. We must teach “character education” cuz so many of the kids don’t learn about character or manners at home. We must teach about the birds and the bees, pass out condoms; yet preach that abstinence is better. We must teach survival skills. We must teach relationship skills. We must constantly be aware of the signs of abuse and intervene when necessary. We must have “divorce groups” so the kids can discuss what’s going on between their parents. Oh, don’t get me wrong, I come home and discuss all the above with my own children. But… well, you see my point. I just worked on my lesson plan book – and penciled in times for math, reading, and such. It’s amazing that I was able to _find_ any. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Frannie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Frannie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frannie)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/58 "2000-08-07T04:34:49Z")
Heck, sometimes we have to teach them how to brush their teeth. [sub]OK, I’ll stop now.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/59 "2000-08-07T04:42:34Z")
I swear that DARE is the creepiest thing ever, and more–it’s laughable. I think most of the DARE sessions I went through consisted of the entire class staring at the officer’s gun and going, “wow”. And half the students who went through it were taking one drug or another in 2 years anyway. though it does produce some very good (if somewhat suspect factually) slogans, like: DARE to keep the CIA off drugs ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016/60 "2000-08-07T04:45:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Frannie \* > \*\*I just worked on my lesson plan book – and penciled in times for math, reading, and such. It’s amazing that I was able to _find_ any. :mad: > \*\* What are some of your opinions on the system and how it can be improved? I’m curious to hear from those who are within the system. I have three friends who are all teachers, but they have barely starting out and can offer speculation and not experienced opinions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paranoia-everywhere-in-school-systems/28016.md?page=4)